AARoads:The Interchange/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Archive 2

__ARCHIVEDTALK__

Name of this page

I just created this as "Project discussion" to get it created, but that's a pretty lame name. Should we move it somewhere else?

Some suggestions from Discord:

Environmental impact statements (Scott5114)
Rest stop (Imzadi1979)
The Gulag (Moabdave, hopefully he wasn't too serious about this)
Breezewood (Rschen7754)
- Cove Fort (Moabdave)
- Limon, Colorado (Scott5114)
- Other Desert Cities (LilianaUwU)
Service plaza (Imzadi1979)
The Interchange (Imzadi1979)
Maintenance yard (Scott5114)
The Roundabout (Fredddie)

Any other suggestions, or any on the list you like? (I think "Maintenance yard" is my favorite so far.) Scott5114 (talk) 23:04, 18 June 2023 (EDT)

Someone on the chat suggested roundabout. That also has potential, though I think interchange and Breezewood are the top two.Moabdave (talk) 23:09, 18 June 2023 (EDT)

Breezewood might make sense if we're planning on it being inconvenient and overcommercialized... :P Scott5114 (talk) 23:11, 18 June 2023 (EDT)

Good point. Maybe Breezewood would be best left for our equivalent of ANI, Arbcom or the log page for users with sanctions/editing restrictions until they show they can behave. ;) Moabdave (talk) 23:33, 18 June 2023 (EDT)

"Rest stop" was initially a play off the Traveller's Pub on Wikivoyage. I prefer The Interchange as both a play on the idea of a hub in the network and a place for the interchange of ideas. Imzadi 1979 → 13:27, 19 June 2023 (EDT)

Agree, “The Interchange” sounds like a good name for a project discussion page. Dough4872 15:49, 19 June 2023 (EDT)

Added one more. –Fredddie ™ 20:42, 19 June 2023 (EDT)

Vote

I'd like to call for a vote on this topic. It's been a month, so let's pick something and get this page its final title. Please, list your vote below. Imzadi 1979 → 22:32, 16 July 2023 (EDT)

The Interchange—Imzadi 1979 → 22:32, 16 July 2023 (EDT)
The Interchange --Rs chen 7754 22:46, 16 July 2023 (EDT)
I'm fine with whatever. But if you forced me to pick in a second round, I'd pick Breezewood. –Fredddie ™ 11:58, 17 July 2023 (EDT)
The Interchange Dough4872 15:03, 27 July 2023 (EDT)

Links

What is everyone else doing with links to pages that won't exist on this wiki? Removing them, or converting them to interwiki links? —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 02:23, 26 June 2023 (EDT)

I think we should link to Wikipedia to articles that are outside our scope. However, I’m waiting until more articles are imported so we have less red links to go through and also possibly if we could have a bot convert these links. Dough4872 06:38, 26 June 2023 (EDT)

I'm asking so I can see how I would need to code the bot you're talking about... —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 20:56, 26 June 2023 (EDT)

Even if we wait until everything is imported, the challenge is distinguishing between an article in our scope (there are still some states with missing articles on SHs) and something that is not. --Rs chen 7754 21:00, 26 June 2023 (EDT)

My plan is to do something like take the list of SRNC naming conventions, toss it into an array, and if anything in the array appears as a substring of the link's target page, don't touch skip it. If it doesn't match the array, point the link to enwp. Won't be 100% accurate, of course, so it will need some further cleanup. But it's a start at least. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 05:41, 27 June 2023 (EDT)

Probably the thing to do is 1) wait until everything is imported 2) run a bot to check: if it is not on AARoads AND is on enwiki, then convert to w:. --Rs chen 7754 20:08, 27 June 2023 (EDT)

I've been converting some to enwiki links. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 03:48, 27 June 2023 (EDT)

County categories

A good number of articles seem to be categorized under "Transportation in Whatever County, State". How would everyone feel about retaining these categories but changing them to just "Whatever County, State"? Would be helpful for the county clinchers. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 20:23, 29 July 2023 (EDT)

Support. Yes, yes, yes. If you didn't mention removing the "Transportation in " I would have. –Fredddie ™ 21:13, 29 July 2023 (EDT)

Support either “Roads in Countyname County, Statename” or “Countyname County, Statename”. We don’t need to use “Transportation” since our wiki is only focused on roads. Dough4872 00:13, 30 July 2023 (EDT)

Draft content policy

I have created a draft of a content policy, using User:Fredddie/Policies as a guide and formatting it according to the Standard/Support/Guidance/Option scheme used in the MUTCD. Please take a look and let me know what you think. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 03:34, 24 June 2023 (EDT)

Some points:

SRNC did not cover Canada so you might want to add something in that regard.
Under sources, you don't address maps at all.
The scope probably needs further examination. I know at the moment we allow articles on many national and state scenic byways, as well as auto trails, without controversy. For Canada you could probably say primary provincial highways and get 90% of the coverage. --Rs chen 7754 12:16, 24 June 2023 (EDT)

I said it on Discord, but I don't think our fair-use content policy needs to be as draconian as enwiki's. I think if we limited uses to five or even three pages, that should cover the vast majority of uses. Shields I wouldn't even worry about because they're going to be between 24px and 72px and unlinked. Reason being is that we are a roads wiki, we are limited by nature. –Fredddie ™ 16:06, 24 June 2023 (EDT)

I think this is a good start for a content policy. I do agree with Rschen that we need to mention information about using maps as sources, since this was recently a contested issue on Wikipedia. In addition, the scope should mention other types of roads such as auto trails, scenic byways, and whatever else we decide to cover including the extent of coverage of secondary state highways and county routes as well as how business loops/special routes should be covered. The scope should also mention what types of roads we decide not to cover as well. Dough4872 16:47, 24 June 2023 (EDT)

Regarding Rschen's points, #1 would cover state maps, and all we need to do is add "maps and atlases" to the list in #2 to cover Rand McNally, et al. –Fredddie ™ 16:55, 24 June 2023 (EDT)

Well, this is a draft, we can change the wording as much as we like before it becomes policy. Some responses, though:

Regarding the SRNC stuff, that's just temporary language that will be replaced when we decide what the new naming conventions are going to be.
It says reliable sources include...but it doesn't say other sources are excluded. (I've done my time WikiLawyering, remember. ;) ) But yes, we can shim maps in there somewhere.
The scope definition definitely needs to be expanded/made more precise, but it looks like it's several discussions on this page have not reached a conclusion, so I didn't bother to try to make the language perfect because it currently doesn't fully reflect consensus anyway. (The summary of the outcomes of the discussions will need to be added to the policy either way.)
For the fair use policy, I was mostly using the enwp fair use guideline as a known good template; we can certainly loosen it if it's deemed prudent and within our rights to do. Still, though, it is actually designed to be quite a bit looser than the enwp guideline as-is—note that because the fair use rationale is in a guidance "should" statement rather than a "shall", not having a fair use rationale is not grounds to delete an image! —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 18:00, 24 June 2023 (EDT)

Since there's been no comments in opposition since June, I have gone ahead and moved this to project space at AARoads:Content policy, so I suppose that means it is officially enacted. I've also created a policy landing page at AARoads:Policy that can be used any time you want to be all like, "you know, policy, over there," without being specific. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 01:57, 11 October 2023 (EDT)

AWB/JWB access

If you are interested in AA:JWB access, please sign up below. Admins and above have it by default. Presumably AWB works, but I have yet to try it since JS has been turned on. –Fredddie ™ 18:42, 11 July 2023 (EDT)

I'd like to get JWB access. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 15:40, 2 October 2023 (EDT)
I think I did it? Did it work? Try it out, I guess. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 15:44, 2 October 2023 (EDT)

User rights discussion

I think before launch we should consider the following two changes to user rights:

Restrict uploading to administrators and those with a special right only, to encourage people to upload to Commons.
Add rollback to the patrollers group to more quickly deal with vandalism.

Thoughts? --Rs chen 7754 22:12, 16 July 2023 (EDT)

Sounds good to me. We should also probably create a AARoads:User rights requests page to allow people to request patroller, uploader, and admin rights. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 22:14, 16 July 2023 (EDT)

Agreed with both of the above. Imzadi 1979 → 22:20, 16 July 2023 (EDT)

I agree with both points made by Rschen and Scott. Dough4872 22:21, 16 July 2023 (EDT)

Yeah, sounds good. (Is this a consensus forming? On AARoads Wiki?!) LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 22:24, 16 July 2023 (EDT)

This has now been done. --Rs chen 7754 12:07, 22 July 2023 (EDT)

Should we fold permissions into this page as well? I was thinking the AWB/JWB rights request could be here as well. It'd be one less forum and there's a thin line between permissions and rights. –Fredddie ™ 14:54, 30 August 2023 (EDT)

I added the permission to the request page. along with a few clarifications. Imzadi 1979 → 05:35, 12 September 2023 (EDT)

For those who haven't yet commented, there are now some user rights requests that have been opened at AARoads:User rights requests. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 22:49, 14 September 2023 (EDT)

AASHTO Spring 2023

The meeting notes have been posted, [1]. Because this is AARW we can cite directly. --Rs chen 7754 14:14, 12 September 2023 (EDT)

{{AASHTO minutes|year=2023S}}: Special Committee on U.S. Route Numbering (June 9, 2023). "2023 Spring Meeting Report to the Council on Highways and Streets" (PDF) (Report). Washington, DC: American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials. Imzadi 1979 → 02:08, 16 September 2023 (EDT)

Tracking files used on Commons

Wikimedia Commons user Rschen7754 suggested to me over there that my Usage Bot could usefully track the usage of Commons' files on this wiki. It would do this by fetching a list of the Commons files used on this wiki using the MediaWiki API and maintaining a collection of galleries on Commons so that "Commons:Files used on the AARoads Wiki" would appear in the "File usage on Commons" section of those files' pages on Commons. This would alert anyone proposing to delete or otherwise mess with those files to the effect that might have here. Does this seem like a good idea? --bjh21 (talk) 17:48, 14 September 2023 (EDT)

That would definitely be useful and appreciated! —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 22:50, 14 September 2023 (EDT)

I concur. This would be useful. Imzadi 1979 → 00:38, 15 September 2023 (EDT)

I also agree that this would be a great idea. Dough4872 20:28, 15 September 2023 (EDT)

Agreed, it would be useful especially if we start adding many more photos exclusively for AAroads wiki use. JJBers (talk) 14:46, 16 September 2023 (EDT)

I've now added the AARoads Wiki to Usage Bot's configuration, so if everything goes right it should populate c:Commons:Files used on the AARoads Wiki on Monday. --bjh21 (talk) 17:31, 23 September 2023 (EDT)

OK, it took a few more Mondays than that, but c:Commons:Files used on the AARoads Wiki is now populated, so Commons files used here will appear on Commons to be used on a subpage of c:Commons:Files used on the AARoads Wiki. --bjh21 (talk) 15:44, 9 October 2023 (EDT)

Thank you very much for your help with this! It's greatly appreciated. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 18:16, 10 October 2023 (EDT)

Adminship requirements

I do want to start this discussion since there are already requests for becoming an admin. What support percentage (support/support+oppose) are we looking for? Who is eligible to vote? And how long should requests last? Rs chen 7754 23:57, 14 September 2023 (EDT)

I would suggest 2 weeks, 75%. Maybe we introduce eligibility requirements later, but not now. --Rs chen 7754 00:00, 15 September 2023 (EDT)
If we want to return to the principle of "adminship is no big deal", then 50% + 1 vote should be sufficient. Experience on Wikipedia RFA (and the U.S. Senate!) shows that setting the bar much higher than that favors the status quo (and thus favors not promoting new admins). —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 00:04, 15 September 2023 (EDT)
- I'm not sure about that. If someone doesn't have the trust of the vast majority of the community, they should not be admin. Ditto for the discussion below, I would say the threshold of support should be lower to remove an admin. --Rs chen 7754 00:10, 15 September 2023 (EDT)
  - That's a valid argument to make, but then if you look at most of the collectively-selected leadership roles that exist outside of the wiki world, very seldom do they require such a high bar. (By all accounts the governor of my state aligns pretty well with the majority political view here, and even he couldn't get all that much over 55%.) —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 00:23, 15 September 2023 (EDT)
    - It could be lower than 75%, after all one of our current admins passed enwiki with only 68%. --Rs chen 7754 00:32, 15 September 2023 (EDT)
I see two trains of thought here. The first is that adminship is no big deal and, thus, if more than 25% of voters don't trust you with such a meaningless bit, then you probably shouldn't get it. The other, of course, is that a significant contingent of people don't actually view adminship that way, whether they realize it or not, so having such a high threshold is just going to turn this into enwiki RfA, which has been broken for years. I land on the side of train #2. I'd say 50%+1 is plenty. TCN7JM 03:04, 15 September 2023 (EDT)
- Regarding timeframe, I'd say it should be a minimum of seven days and a maximum of 14. If there's an obvious consensus (to be determined by closing crat) after seven days, close it. If the discussion is still ongoing, allow it to continue until the 14-day mark at the latest, at which point the closing crat calls time and interprets the results themself. T C N7JM 03:10, 15 September 2023 (EDT)
If I had my druthers, we'd save the high scrutiny for 'crats and hire more of them. That way they can give out rights (up to and including admin) at will. If an at-will admin screws up, they can be desysopped and the 'crat can get scolded for poor judgment on a drama board. I'm in the "adminship is NBD" camp. –Fredddie™ 19:53, 15 September 2023 (EDT)
- So maybe we split the difference and say simple majority for admin, three-fourths majority for a bureaucrat? —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 12:05, 18 September 2023 (EDT)

I say split the difference and make the percentage a 2/3 majority; that way, you won't get any admins who half the community doesn't support, but you also don't have quite as high a bar as RfA. (In practice, the bar for RfA is close to 2/3 when you factor in the discretionary range, but I'd rather not do crat chats here for a number of reasons.) I suspect a lot of the toxicity of RfA has less to do with the threshold and more to do with editors using it as a proxy battleground for every long-running Wikipedia culture war, and I'm hoping that us having a fresh start will cut out a lot of that. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 16:04, 19 September 2023 (EDT)

I would support 2/3. --Rs chen 7754 01:40, 20 September 2023 (EDT)

Deadminship requirements

Unlike English Wikipedia, we should have a desysop process. What would be required? --Rs chen 7754 23:57, 14 September 2023 (EDT)

Unlike with granting adminship, removing admin rights carries the risk that users that have had administrative actions carried out against them may gang up on them and call for blood. So a higher threshold for taking the mop away than granting it makes sense. I would say that a two-thirds majority would be a good place to put it. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 00:06, 15 September 2023 (EDT)
I think 50%+1 would be more appropriate here - if half the community doesn't trust you, you shouldn't be an admin. But some wikis like Commons require that a discussion take place somewhere else as a first step, which could be a safeguard against removal. --Rs chen 7754 00:23, 15 September 2023 (EDT)
I agree with Scott here. It might not be an issue now, but if we get large enough that an angry mob could theoretically be sent to desysop you, the bar should be higher than a simple majority. However, I also understand Rschen's POV and could be persuaded to rethink this if we have some sort of common-sense protection against pile-ons. T C N7JM 03:04, 15 September 2023 (EDT)
Part of me thinks that desysopping should be by a majority vote of other sysops, while the vote of the rest of users could be counted as a single vote. –Fredddie™ 19:53, 15 September 2023 (EDT)
- My concern with this is perception/closing ranks and a reluctance to let admins be held accountable for their own actions. --Rs chen 7754 23:51, 15 September 2023 (EDT)
  - That was my concern as well, but I was thinking of it coming from the other direction. –Fredddie ™ 19:35, 19 September 2023 (EDT)
I've been going back and forth on this, and I think I agree with Scott, if only because we don't know how this community will evolve yet or what sort of controversies we'll have to deal with. I think 50%+1 would work if the community continues to look like what it is now - a pretty close-knit group of people collaborating to write about roads - but if we get big enough that the community starts to factionalize (like enwiki has several times over) I wouldn't want one faction of editors to control a desysop vote. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 16:42, 19 September 2023 (EDT)

Closing

We only have 2 bureaucrats. Is the expectation still going to be that bureaucrats have to recuse in requests they have voted on? --Rs chen 7754 14:09, 15 September 2023 (EDT)

Until we have more 'crats, I would suggest that 'crats just don't vote or comment on requests unless there is a procedural question. –Fredddie ™ 19:53, 15 September 2023 (EDT)

If we are doing the decision on straight vote count, theoretically it shouldn't matter whether crats vote or not, because everyone will be able to count for themselves that the vote was 17-3 or whatever and thus that the promotion was appropriate. The enwp-style "closer gets to decide based on the vibe of the conversation after they throw out whatever votes they want to throw out" never sat well with me, so I'm loath to employ it here, even if I do get to play Chief Vibemaster here. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 14:39, 16 September 2023 (EDT)

Approval vote

The discussion seems like it's sort of stalled out, so how about we try giving this approval voting thing a spin? Vote will close in 14 days (nobody seems to have a problem with 14 days for admin discussions either, so we can just default to that). Vote for all of the following principles that you feel you can live with. Whichever gets the most votes in each section will win. Keep all discussion above this section. To prevent "badgering the opposes", don't explain your vote; if you want to do that, do it in the discussion thread above. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 04:14, 6 October 2023 (EDT)

This discussion has been closed and is preserved as an archive of the decision of the community. Please do not modify it!

The result of the discussion was

Adminship requires a two-thirds majority.
Cratship requires the same vote threshold as adminship.
Deadminship requires a two-thirds majority.
Bureaucrats can close a vote starting at 7 days if there is an obvious consensus.
Bureaucrats may close discussions they have voted in.

—Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 07:01, 20 October 2023 (EDT)

Adminship

Adminship requires a simple majority.

—Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 04:14, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
Dough4872 09:35, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
T C (Eli) 17:27, 6 October 2023 (EDT)

Adminship requires a three-fourths majority.

Rs chen 7754 14:02, 6 October 2023 (EDT)

Bureaucrats can create admins at will.

–Fredddie ™ 11:55, 6 October 2023 (EDT)

Adminship requires a two-thirds majority.

—Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 04:14, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
Rs chen 7754 10:58, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
-TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 12:09, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
Sounder Bruce 14:14, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
T C (Eli) 17:27, 6 October 2023 (EDT)

Closing time

Discussions must run for 14 days, unless the nominee withdraws.

—Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 04:14, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
Dough4872 09:35, 6 October 2023 (EDT)

Bureaucrats can close a vote starting at 7 days if there is an obvious consensus.

Dough4872 09:35, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
–Fredddie ™ 11:57, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
-TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 12:09, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
Rs chen 7754 14:01, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
Sounder Bruce 14:14, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
T C (Eli) 17:27, 6 October 2023 (EDT)

Cratship

Cratship requires the same vote threshold as adminship.

—Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 04:14, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
Dough4872 09:35, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
–Fredddie ™ 11:57, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
-TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 12:09, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
Sounder Bruce 14:14, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
T C (Eli) 17:28, 6 October 2023 (EDT)

Cratship requires a higher vote threshold, to be determined, than adminship.

—Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 04:14, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
Dough4872 09:35, 6 October 2023 (EDT)

Deadminship

Deadminship requires a two-thirds majority.

—Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 04:14, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
–Fredddie ™ 11:57, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
-TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 12:09, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
Sounder Bruce 14:14, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
T C (Eli) 17:28, 6 October 2023 (EDT)

Deadminship requires a simple majority.

Deadminship requires a simple majority, but there must be a discussion somewhere else first.

Dough4872 09:35, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
Rs chen 7754 11:00, 6 October 2023 (EDT)

Desysopping should be by a majority vote of other sysops, while the vote of the rest of users could be counted as a single vote.

Dough4872 09:35, 6 October 2023 (EDT)

Bureaucrats' role

Bureaucrats may close discussions they have voted in.

—Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 04:14, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
Dough4872 09:35, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
–Fredddie ™ 11:57, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
-TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 12:09, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
Sounder Bruce 14:14, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
T C (Eli) 17:28, 6 October 2023 (EDT)

Bureaucrats may not close discussions they have voted in.

—Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 04:14, 6 October 2023 (EDT)

Request additional articles from Wikipedia

Where do we request to add additional articles from Wikipedia that are not on this wiki yet? For example, I think we need to add Inner–outer directions, but of course once that is done we would edit that to our own needs (e.g. removing the paragraphs in that article that are about rail lines) . Ran4sh (talk) 13:55, 13 October 2023 (EDT)

Edit - Scratch that request, apparently we already have it. But then we need redirects or edits from articles that use a different link. Ran4sh (talk) 13:57, 13 October 2023 (EDT)

Import requests can be left at AARoads:Cleanup#Error reports. Redirects are simple enough to make that you'd probably find it easier to make them yourself than to explain which ones need to be made; all you have to do is create a page with #REDIRECT [[Page to redirect to]] at the top and it should work (the only time it won't is if you accidentally create a redirect to a redirect, but this is easily avoidable). Welcome to the wiki! —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 01:18, 14 October 2023 (EDT)

Draft conduct policy

I've got another draft policy ready for review, at User:Scott5114/Conduct policy. Please let me know if you think anything is missing or needs to be changed! —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 08:18, 20 October 2023 (EDT)

I'd like a little more clarification on the semi- and fully automated edits section.

No user shall engage in either fully-automatic or semi-automatic editing without the approval of the community before beginning such editing.

The way I interpret this is, every time someone fires up JWB, they have to ask for permission. I hope that's not right. –Fredddie ™ 17:24, 20 October 2023 (EDT)

There is an Option statement further down that addresses JWB: Administrators may grant a user the ability to use a piece of semi-automated editing software at their discretion. Administrators may also revoke this ability at their discretion if the user is operating it in an abusive or incompetent manner. Semi-automated editing ability is granted indefinitely, and need not be re-requested for each individual task performed with that piece of software. (the idea here is that an admin putting you on the list is "the approval of the community" for semi-automated edits. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 10:41, 21 October 2023 (EDT)

I would like to see something about "what to do if you are sanctioned by an admin/bureaucrat/whatever" specifically how to appeal the action and that insulting the admin will just make things worse. Dave (talk) 01:50, 21 October 2023 (EDT)

Well, who would you rather they insult? :P For real, though, what process do we want to have? Just an {{unblock}} template? And then what, if anything? —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 10:39, 21 October 2023 (EDT)

I don't care if we have a template or a formal process as Wikipedia does. However, I would prefer something like this:

If you were blocked or otherwise sanctioned by an administrator or other staff member, and feel the sanctions are unreasonable you may appeal your block by creating a new section on your talk page titled "Administrator sanction review". Calmly list the reasons why you feel the sanction was unfair. It is best to state the facts of the issue as you understand them and if appropriate propose an alternative remedy to the situation. Avoid attacking the administrator or site in general. Such attacks are almost never helpful to your cause and often make the situation worse. Notify the administrator who issued the sanction and or any other site administrator via ....

What comes after the via could be a template as wiki does or it could be a link to all the admins (maybe even a category page, if we make all admins belong to a category) with instructions how to message an admin from their userpage (i.e. click email this user). If we go with the "email this user" we might then want to say something like

As replying to the email could reveal the admin's email address, they may choose to reply to the email on the talk page, so be sure to indicate any information that is confidential and not to disclosed on your talk page.

thoughts? Dave (talk) 18:38, 21 October 2023 (EDT)

I think that it's probably a good idea to have that sort of thing written down, but it should probably be a separate page like AARoads:What to do if you get blocked, rather than being part of the policy. (Now that I think about it, part of what makes the enwp policy pages so daunting is that each individual policy goes on and on and on with lots of rules and procedures and edge cases that aren't part of the actual rules they're trying to communicate at all.) Part of my goal with the policies I've written so far is to keep them concise enough that a user can hold them all in their head; having to skim past a procedure most users will never need to follow seems like it would run counter to that goal. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 19:20, 21 October 2023 (EDT)

That's reasonable. But I definitely think this procedure should be written down _somewhere_ before we need to have one. This is definitely one procedure we don't want to wait until we need it to have it.Dave (talk) 22:12, 22 October 2023 (EDT)

As currently written 3RR has no exceptions for vandalism. --Rs chen 7754 19:42, 21 October 2023 (EDT)

Whoops, knew I was forgetting something. Fixed! —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 20:57, 21 October 2023 (EDT)

I like the draft conduct policy think it will work out well on our wiki. Dough4872 23:43, 21 October 2023 (EDT)

Since it's been two weeks with no real objections, I've gone ahead and moved this to AARoads:Conduct policy. So it is now in force. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 23:58, 5 November 2023 (EST)

Customize the wiki?

Is it a good idea to customize the wiki? If so, I have some suggestions.

Thanks! --Dwightland (talk) 12:52, 1 October 2023 (EDT)

You are free to edit your Special:Mypage/common.css as you see fit without it affecting other users. –Fredddie ™ 14:12, 1 October 2023 (EDT)

Some changes to the theme are on our to-do list. However, we're still in the process of cleaning up the initial article import, so that's been higher priority. As Fredddie recommends, perhaps the best way to make a suggestion is to make the changes you want to see on your common.css, then show off what you've changed, and whatever the community likes we can move over to the site-wide CSS. Welcome to the AARoads Wiki! —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 17:41, 1 October 2023 (EDT)

Perhaps also have a differing favicon so I can differentiate the tabs from AARoads Forums. Andrepoiy (talk) 12:53, 3 October 2023 (EDT)

Maybe make the outside square blue and the shield green or red? —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 04:19, 6 October 2023 (EDT)

I'd like to use a "guide sign" version of the logo: outline the shield in red and place it on a green background, leaving the shield in blue and the lettering in white. Imzadi 1979 → 15:07, 10 October 2023 (EDT)

Perhaps we can make something where the favicon spells AARW instead of just AAR. Same with the main logo, put Wiki underneath Roads. –Fredddie ™ 15:49, 10 October 2023 (EDT)

The problem with the "guide sign" version is that it wouldn't really be all that distinct for those with red/green color blindness (thus why I suggested blue background/red shield, since that would at least appear to be inverse color). I'm also not sure if, at favicon size, extra text would be all that legible. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 19:00, 10 October 2023 (EDT)

Pre-car highways

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The result of the discussion was that we should not cover them now, but this can be revisited in the future. –Fredddie ™ 01:25, 8 November 2023 (EST)

i.e. ancient Roman roads, Japanese roads

I'd say these are outside our implied scope, which always seemed to correspond closely to the age of the automobile. The notable ones are likely to remain covered in Wikipedia. Imzadi 1979 → 14:02, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
I think it’s okay to cover pre-car roads in articles about modern car highways, but not in dedicated articles. Dough4872 16:05, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
No. --Rs chen 7754 19:15, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
I am open to inclusion of 18th and 19th century turnpikes or any other highway clearly engineered for use of wagons and other pre-automobile heavy vehicles. V C 20:41, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
I'm inclined to say no now, but I'm willing to revisit once we get an editor base. –Fredddie ™ 21:56, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
Yes, but not our first priority. First priority are articles under threat at Wikipedia due to map sources or whatever. Pre-car highways are so far safe over there.Moabdave (talk) 14:02, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
Usually not; many of them are only tangentially related to the modern-day roads that replaced them. We could cover them in a short "background" subsection of the History section if they were particularly relevant. Scott5114 (talk) 23:51, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
What VC said, essentially; I'm for including things like turnpikes that are direct precursors of modern highways, especially ones that evolved into modern highways. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 22:15, 3 September 2023 (EDT)

Historical highways

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Historical highways will be included. --Rs chen 7754 02:41, 29 October 2023 (EDT)

same as above, except there is still something driveable today

If you mean decommissioned highways, they should be in our scope. Since we're covering state highways (and major county roads), former state highways should be included. Auto trails should too round out the early years of the age of the automobile that I have in mind for a historical boundary. That isn't to say that individual road articles can't and won't cover pre-car days, just that I think we get a rough boundary on how far back we want to go. Imzadi 1979 → 14:02, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
Decommissioned highways and auto trails should be covered. Dough4872 16:05, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
- I think I mean more like wikipedia:Mammoth Road where there is still something drivable today, but the bulk of it is historical. --Rs chen 7754 19:04, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
  - Agree we should cover those types of roads, which would include pre-freeway turnpikes that are today modern roads. Dough4872 19:19, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
Yes, but higher scrutiny of whether the content should be part of another article, part of a list article, or a standalone article. V C 20:45, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
I'm OK with these. –Fredddie ™ 21:56, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
Decommissioned highways and auto trails should be covered. Scott5114 (talk) 23:51, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
Possibly obvious from my vote in the above section, but yes. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 16:45, 6 October 2023 (EDT)

DOTs

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DOTs will be included, near-unanimous acceptance. --Rs chen 7754 22:33, 24 October 2023 (EDT)

At some point, yes. We're going to end up linking to these agencies in the articles. Unlike cities and such, it would make sense to have our own articles at some point. I could even see splitting out article son some predecessors in a state, like maybe covering the Michigan State Highway Department separate from MDOT. Imzadi 1979 → 14:02, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
I know that DOTs are important to roads, but many of them also cover other aspects of transportation such as trains, planes, public transportation, and driver licensing. I’m not totally sure if they are fully in our scope to have articles. Dough4872 16:05, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
Yes, we should include the top-level transportation agency in every state, even if much of the agency's focus is non-road forms of transportation. V C 20:47, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
Yes, but the articles should be tailored to focus on their road activities with some mention of other aspects. Sounder Bruce 02:02, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
Yes, but I am hesitant to do a straight import per Bruce. --Rs chen 7754 14:40, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
Yes. –Fredddie ™ 21:56, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
No, without prejudice - these articles are not under threat at wikipedia, and are not likely to be. If that changes then yes. Moabdave (talk) 14:03, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
Maybe, if a case can be made that the scope of our coverage would be substantially different enough from enwp's that it's necessary. Otherwise, all we're doing is setting up a page someone on Wikipedia can import from when they find it. Scott5114 (talk) 23:51, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
Include both for the sake of completeness and out of spite to reduce page views on enwiki. T C N7JM 14:54, 31 August 2023 (EDT)
Yes - I'd be okay with narrowing the scope of the articles to just roads, but agencies that maintain road systems should be included. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 16:44, 6 October 2023 (EDT)

Highway-only government bodies such as FHWA

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These will be in scope. --Rs chen 7754 14:18, 6 October 2023 (EDT)

At some point, also yes. I assume we'll be pulling over the index of AASHTO reports, so we should probably have an article on AASHTO. Including them and FHWA fits with the tolling agencies and DOTs. Someone should probably do separate articles on FHWA's predecessors. Imzadi 1979 → 14:02, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
Government agencies devoted to highways are within our scope. Dough4872 16:05, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
Definite yes. Sounder Bruce 02:02, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
Yes. --Rs chen 7754 14:40, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
Yes. –Fredddie ™ 21:56, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
My response to the previous section applies here too. Scott5114 (talk) 23:51, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

Tolling agencies/electronic transponders

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Tolling agencies/electronic transponders will be included in scope. --Rs chen 7754 22:33, 24 October 2023 (EDT)

As adjuncts to the DOTs, yes. Imzadi 1979 → 14:02, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
Toll road agencies and ETC systems are within our scope. Dough4872 16:05, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
Yes to both. V C 20:47, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
Yes, but only if said agency/transponder is used across multiple facilities. I would also support including historic agencies (such as the Washington State Toll Bridge Authority). Sounder Bruce 02:02, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
Yes. –Fredddie ™ 21:56, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
Meh, no opposition but not our top priority. These articles are not under threat at Wikipedia. And given they are routinely mentioned in mainstream media, I doubt they will be. Moabdave (talk) 14:05, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

Companies that run service areas

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Companies that run service areas will not be in scope. --Rs chen 7754 14:10, 6 October 2023 (EDT)

No. Imzadi 1979 → 14:02, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
I would say these fall outside our scope. Dough4872 16:05, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
No. --Rs chen 7754 19:21, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
No. V C 20:49, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
No. I don't think we should be mentioning the specific restaurant brands at a service area, either. –Fredddie ™ 21:56, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
No. Moabdave (talk) 14:04, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
See my response to the DOT section. Scott5114 (talk) 23:51, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

Bike routes

(or other non-car highways - M-185 excluded)

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Bike routes will not be included in the scope. --Rs chen 7754 14:07, 6 October 2023 (EDT)

Not really. Even though AASHTO handles the USBRs, I think that's a bit out of our scope. Imzadi 1979 → 14:02, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
While bike routes may be numbered, they do not deal with car transportation and probably are outside our scope. Dough4872 16:05, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
No. --Rs chen 7754 19:15, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
No, but parallel or overlapping USBRs (and their state equivalents) really ought to be mentioned somewhere in the route descriptions. This is something that was sorely lacking before. Sounder Bruce 02:02, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
No. –Fredddie ™ 21:56, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
No without prejudice. Currently IMHO these are littel more than a novelty. Even the bike clubs lobbying for their creation don't seem to use them. If it becomes a serious thing, yes.Moabdave (talk) 14:09, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
No coverage independent of mentions in regular road articles. V C 19:14, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
🎵 Does anybody really know what bike route this is? Does anybody really care? 🎵 Scott5114 (talk) 23:51, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

Road signs in X

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Road signs will be included. --Rs chen 7754 02:42, 29 October 2023 (EDT)

I assume there will be some element of the AARoads community that will want to cover this topic area in depth. Once we're up and running, those editors should do things on a general level.
Honestly, someone should put together a good history of the MUTCD, and the previous editions should all be transcribed to Wikisource, fork or not. (Note for later, get s: interwiki prefix working for Wikisource along with the w: prefix for Wikipedia.) Imzadi 1979 → 14:02, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
I think road signs fall within our scope and should be covered. Dough4872 16:05, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
I'm OK with these. –Fredddie ™ 21:56, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
Reluctant yes. On wikipedia these articles tend to be crapmagnets. But I also get that now that we're doing this on a roadgeek fansite it will be inevitable that we have them, but hopefully we can have guidelines to keep the crap off of them more so than the wikipedia cousin articles. Moabdave (talk) 14:12, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
Strong yes. If we could nail down, say, the exact dates that state highway shields changed from one style to the other, that would be a big contribution to the roadgeek community and would be a real coup for us. Scott5114 (talk) 23:51, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

Speed limits in X

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The result of the discussion was that we should cover speed limits, but only generally. Let's not import these articles and start fresh. –Fredddie ™ 01:22, 8 November 2023 (EST)

Anything written here should be overview articles. I fear some overly detailed articles listing every speed limit along every highway. Imzadi 1979 → 14:02, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
Speed limits should be covered, but don’t need to be overly detailed and should be kept to a general overview. Dough4872 16:05, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
I'm OK with these. –Fredddie ™ 21:56, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
Reluctant yes. Same as my vote for road signs. It's a crapmagnet, but it's OUR crapmagnet. ;) Moabdave (talk) 14:13, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
Yes, but nothing deeper than one article per country. V C 19:16, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
This should be covered as part of a system-level article and only mention the state statutory speed limits. We don't need an list of every 80 mph zone in the country. Scott5114 (talk) 23:51, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
Per Scott, I'm not a fan of these. --Rs chen 7754 14:19, 6 October 2023 (EDT)
Yes, but overview articles only. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 11:53, 6 November 2023 (EST)

City streets

Not really. There will be some crossover/overlap, but I'd like to stick to roadways with state/provincial highway designations or major county road designations. Imzadi 1979 → 14:02, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
City streets have a different character and fall outside our scope which focuses mostly on numbered highways. Dough4872 16:05, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
Outside our scope, but I could see making exceptions for something like wikipedia:Santa Monica Boulevard. --Rs chen 7754 19:14, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
Most city streets are outside of our scope, but I support including principal arterials in this wiki, at minimum as part of a list article. Which level of government maintains the road and whether the road is numbered should not override the importance of a street for serving to move traffic. V C 20:57, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
I'll go against the grain here and support having articles on major streets in most cities and even some small towns or rural regions, provided they are identified as important by a higher body/level of government. Sounder Bruce 02:02, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
I'm OK with them to a degree. I think we could have a really good article on Broadway in NYC. But I would enforce a limit of how many streets we should have. 1 article per 50,000 residents is a number that has come up before. –Fredddie ™ 21:56, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
Same reasoning as bridges and tunnels. If the wikipedia article is usable for us, use it. If it's not, then we can create our own.Moabdave (talk) 14:10, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
No. A comprehensive article on, say, Broadway in New York City is going to cover a lot of ground that, frankly, none of us are interested in or good at writing or researching. Better to leave that to the urbanists. Scott5114 (talk) 23:51, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
Massively in favor; the only difference between roads and streets is whether a government's slapped a route number on it. The argument of streets not being important enough is inconsistent- if that were true, we'd have to wipe New Jersey Route 59 from this wiki. Streets in a city are equally as important as roads out in the country. BMACS 1002 18:00, 13 August 2023 (EDT)
I want to say yes but then we're gonna have to have a real discussion on what constitutes a notable city street. T C N7JM 06:46, 31 August 2023 (EDT)
Big yes. Why? At least in Toronto, some very important roads simply have no number because Toronto doesn't use numbered routes. I would argue that Yonge Street in Toronto would be more important than the majority of numbered county roads in the rest of the province. Similarly, Winnipeg has a ton of numbered city routes, but I'd argue that a lot of those are rather insignificant. Andrepoiy (talk) 12:56, 3 October 2023 (EDT)
I'm okay with having some streets, especially major arterials that are highways in all but a number designation. I think streets that are more significant for cultural reasons are better suited to Wikipedia, though, and minor streets probably aren't suitable to either place. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 00:21, 25 October 2023 (EDT)

Highway-adjacent areas

Do we have articles for these? Do we import them from English Wikipedia?

Road terminology

Articles in [2] (except for the List of highways numbered X pages)

Yes. --Rs chen 7754 23:29, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
These should be covered on here. Dough4872 21:36, 22 June 2023 (EDT)

Automobile associations

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The result of the discussion was that automobile associations will not be covered, except for w:Automobile Club of Southern California and w:California State Automobile Association. –Fredddie ™ 01:20, 8 November 2023 (EST)

I could see some coverage from the era of auto trails, like how AAA signed highways. In that case, it's like covering AASHO/AASHTO. Imzadi 1979 → 14:02, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
I think these can probably be covered on here. Dough4872 16:05, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
No, however wikipedia:Automobile Club of Southern California might be an exception since they signed highways. --Rs chen 7754 19:16, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
- wikipedia:California State Automobile Association too. Scott5114 (talk) 23:51, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
- To add to this, if we covered all the automobile associations, we would probably have to include the AAA competitors. If we ever add the UK, there are multiple. It's a bit of a can of worms. ACSC/CSAA are different since they actually went and signed roads. --Rs chen 7754 01:43, 25 June 2023 (EDT)
I think there's going to be some overlap with auto trails. Around here, the associations were only worried about one road, but YMMV. –Fredddie ™ 21:56, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
Yes, but only as needed for the ones not welcome on Wikipedia. Moabdave (talk) 14:15, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
ACSC and CSAA would be fine; everyone else can pound sand. Scott5114 (talk) 23:51, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

Driving, drivers licenses

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These will not be in scope. --Rs chen 7754 14:20, 6 October 2023 (EDT)

No. This is starting to get off topic, just like if we decided to cover vehicle models. Imzadi 1979 → 14:02, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
This falls outside our scope, which is focused on highways rather than all aspects of car transportation. Dough4872 16:05, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
No. --Rs chen 7754 20:41, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
No. –Fredddie ™ 21:57, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
No - just use the wikipedia articles, they are likely to be under threat. Moabdave (talk) 14:14, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
No in general, although there might be some limited latitude for a summary of state driving laws for each state (e.g. whether or not it is illegal to use a cell phone while driving or pull into the intersection on a flashing yellow arrow). This sort of thing would be perfect for the annex if we have one. Scott5114 (talk) 23:51, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

Road safety in X

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Road safety in X articles will not be included. --Rs chen 7754 22:34, 24 October 2023 (EDT)

No. --Rs chen 7754 20:40, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
I think road safety is outside our scope. Dough4872 20:45, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
I don't understand the question and I won't respond to it. –Fredddie ™ 21:56, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
No - Just link to Wikipedia's article on the subject. Moabdave (talk) 14:38, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
No, although I would be okay if we included articles on specific safety features or items (see below). Scott5114 (talk) 23:51, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

License plates

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The result of the discussion was that license plate content shall be permitted to exist on this wiki but shall not be prioritized and shall be relegated to the Annex. T C (Eli) 01:15, 15 November 2023 (EST)

Articles like w:Vehicle registration plates of Oklahoma seem like they might be affected by the notability purges, and roadgeeks often have an interest in license plates as well.

Weak yes, simply because these are potentially useful reference materials that would be of interest to our readership and are at risk of being trashed. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 13:32, 26 August 2023 (EDT)
I think we can cover these since there is a lot of useful information these articles hold and it would be good to have them here if Wikipedia decides to go after them. Dough4872 16:48, 26 August 2023 (EDT)
This feels like Annex: material. Imzadi 1979 → 05:46, 12 September 2023 (EDT)
On the one hand, license plates are a pretty different topic from roads, and I don't think the stuff Wikipedia already has is at risk for deletion (trust me, people write entire books on license plate history). On the other hand, I kind of want there to be a license plate wiki that isn't bound by Wikipedia's content rules. I say put them in the Annex and see what happens. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 00:31, 14 September 2023 (EDT)
No, not that I think those articles should be deleted from the Internet, but because we have to draw the line somewhere. --Rs chen 7754 22:36, 24 October 2023 (EDT)

State highways less than 1 mile (?) long

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Consensus is to not merge away articles solely based on an arbitrary length criterion. --Rs chen 7754 23:36, 10 November 2023 (EST)

I would say it's a case by case basis. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 22:35, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
- Yeah. SH 110 in Colorado is a good example of this. It used to be a much longer and well-signed state highway that extended northeast out of Silverton and had a real purpose. It's also quite an old one, having been established back in the 1920s. These days, almost the entire route has been decommissioned, save for a block or two of Greene Street starting at US 550, which is now unsigned. The small length is only retained to connect US 550 to a CDOT maintenance yard in town.— MatthewAnderson707 (talk) 19:13, 19 August 2023 (EDT)
Depends on the situation. In a state like Maryland where there is a large number of short highways that would otherwise be permastubs, a RCS list is a good idea. If a state only has a couple short highways, then we can always do separate articles. Dough4872 23:20, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
I've never been in favor of these lists, and in a fork, even less so. It's one thing to have something like a list of lettered spurs from a common mainline highway merged, or a list of Louisiana's hyphenated numbered highways in a common series merged together, but I'm not keen on merging unrelated highways together just because they're all short. It's just seemed too arbitrary. In a fork, I guess I'd rather treat all highways with equal dignity, for lack of a better term, regardless of physical length. Imzadi 1979 → 00:51, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
- Indeed, if we discriminate with highways, it should be for an objective reason like they are secondary. --Rs chen 7754 01:18, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
  - That said, I'm generally more in favor of splitting out stand-alone articles than merging them together on our own wiki. Louisiana's hyphenated highways are a case where merging makes sense since there won't be a lot about them individually, and the grouping merged together is a more cohesive story. Individual special routes though? I'd split wikipedia:Business routes of Interstate 75 in Michigan since they're all separate state highways. In fact, BL I-75 in Grayling is on the NHS/STRAHNET. They're really only merged together to deal with the deletion/notablity pressures on enwp, but if we use a metric of state-maintained or -designated (and equivalents in other locations), then these would have their own articles. Imzadi 1979 → 14:39, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
We should use better criteria to create RCS lists than route length. I favor listifying 3-mile boat ramp highways along the same criteria as 0.9-mile highways that do or do not serve boat ramps. If we cannot say more than five information-dense sentences about a highway, regardless of length, put it in a list. V C 19:30, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
I'm with Imzadi here. –Fredddie ™ 21:56, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
Agreed with Imzadi. It's a last resort for states where there's tons of short, barely notable highways with no other means to group them into a listicle. I.E. only if it's either this format or 50 permastubs.Moabdave (talk) 14:17, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
This is too arbitrary of a criterion for me to support. Scott5114 (talk) 00:09, 22 June 2023 (EDT)
Keep the category. No need for a list. T C N7JM 06:48, 31 August 2023 (EDT)
Agreed with Imzadi. Merging shorter and less significant highways always felt like a compromise with Wikipedia's notability rules, and we don't need to do that here. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 12:58, 12 September 2023 (EDT)
Go ahead and split back out. --Rs chen 7754 00:21, 1 October 2023 (EDT)

Listicles

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Closing both of these since the outcome is the same. In general these should be put in RCS lists but can be standalone articles if there is enough content for them. Alternative locations such as in the state detail articles or RCS articles split by state or in the main article are all permissible. --Rs chen 7754 14:51, 11 November 2023 (EST)

IH/USH BLs

I think these are best handled in an RCS list that is either standalone or in the parent article depending on number of routes, with separate articles for routes with more information. Dough4872 08:46, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
I think that if someone can write a decent article that these should be standalone. Remember, much of the mergers on enwp were to stave off deletion/notability issues under those notability standards. If we have a "state-maintained or -designated" basis for notability, then these topics wouldn't be subject to the same deletion pressures. I'd be all for in time splitting off each of Michigan's business loops/spurs and such into separate articles, as they once were. If others wanted to do the same in other states, more power to them, if they can write something decent. Imzadi 1979 → 14:30, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
Create an RCS list, or stick in the parent article if there are low number, such as BL I-83 and BL I-81 (the only instances for their respective routes). Routes with a lot of information or that are clearly notable, such as BL I-70 in Denver, can be split off into standalone articles. V C 19:32, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
Listicle, or list in a section of the parent highway's article, in most cases. In cases where the BL has an alternate designation (such as a state route) have one article for both. Dedicated articles for select cases, such as I-80BL Sacramento. Moabdave (talk) 14:20, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
Seconding what Viridiscalculus said. Scott5114 (talk) 00:09, 22 June 2023 (EDT)
Maybe we should be considering a different solution because of our technical limits. Business routes of Interstate 40 is hitting the limits as to what will load in a page (besides adding extra DB size) and maybe combining everything is not the best solution. Maybe we need to split that particular one up by state. --Rs chen 7754 14:15, 8 July 2023 (EDT)
- If we're splitting it up by state anyway, why not just move the coverage of those to the state-detail articles of the parent highway? —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 14:43, 16 September 2023 (EDT)
  - I like that idea, the only issue is what to do about BLs that cross state lines. Dough4872 17:00, 16 September 2023 (EDT)
Listicle unless there's enough to say about a route that it can support a standalone article, and split the massive lists by state. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 00:31, 25 October 2023 (EDT)

IH/USH bannered routes

I think these are best handled in an RCS list that is either standalone or in the parent article depending on number of routes, with separate articles for routes with more information. Dough4872 08:46, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
See the section above, although I'll just note that I don't really consider some of the Alt./Emergency I-X routes to be actual highway designations in Wisconsin and Michigan. They exist for emergency detour purposes and aren't listed on the official state highway maps. Imzadi 1979 → 14:30, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
RCS unless the route has enough information or is notable enough for its own article, like US 1-9 Truck. There should be extra scrutiny for truck routes and emergency detours. V C 19:35, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
Seconding what Viridiscalculus said again. Scott5114 (talk) 00:09, 22 June 2023 (EDT)
Essentially what I said for the business routes (listicle unless notable), though alternate U.S. routes should have standalone articles, and I'm not even sure permanent detour routes need to be in the listicles. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 00:34, 25 October 2023 (EDT)

Connecticut special service roads

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The result of the discussion was to keep as a table. –Fredddie ™ 01:22, 11 November 2023 (EST)

Table, most unsigned. --Rs chen 7754 21:45, 28 June 2023 (EDT)

Connecticut 500+ routes

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The result of the discussion was to keep as a table. –Fredddie ™ 01:22, 11 November 2023 (EST)

Table, most unsigned. --Rs chen 7754 02:04, 20 June 2023 (EDT)

Montana secondary

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The result of the discussion was to keep as a table. –Fredddie ™ 01:18, 11 November 2023 (EST)

Keep as a table. V C 21:12, 28 June 2023 (EDT)

Nebraska secondary

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The result of the discussion was to keep as a table. –Fredddie ™ 01:19, 11 November 2023 (EST)

Keep the Spur, Link, and Recreation routes as tables. V C 21:13, 28 June 2023 (EDT)

New York reference routes

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Unsigned reference routes will be in a list; those that are/were signed will have articles. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 22:48, 24 October 2023 (EDT)

List only, of course most refer to parkways and should redirect there. Rs chen 7754 23:46, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
- Okay with keeping signed routes. --Rs chen 7754 17:38, 25 June 2023 (EDT)
There are 4 reference routes that are signed as such and should keep their articles; otherwise a list should suffice in cases when they can't be lumped into another route's article.BMACS1002 (talk) 15:53, 25 June 2023 (EDT)

North Carolina secondary routes

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The result of the discussion was that these routes shall not be individually covered unless otherwise notable and that the network's coverage shall be placed in North Carolina Highway System. T C (Eli) 01:06, 15 November 2023 (EST)

Nothing, unsigned/paper routes. --Rs chen 7754 02:13, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
Nothing, with the exception of the few secondary highways that are freeways or principal arterials. V C 21:56, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
Nothing but a paragraph on the SHS article. –Fredddie ™ 10:02, 7 November 2023 (EST)

North Dakota county routes

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lol even LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 22:49, 24 October 2023 (EDT)

No coverage. V C 22:24, 23 June 2023 (EDT)
Lmao T C N7JM 06:18, 31 August 2023 (EDT)

Ontario

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The result of the discussion was as noted. –Fredddie ™ 01:27, 11 November 2023 (EST)

Ontario secondary routes 5xx, 6xx

Case by case basis. Many of these go from Nowhere to Beyond-Nowhere. Some are notable enough for separate articles (ex. ON 599), remainder can be covered in RCS style articles until enough information becomes available to warrant a split. - Floydian (talk) 14:35, 30 September 2023 (EDT)

Ontario tertiary routes 8xx

Same as secondary. There's only a handful (<14), so they could probably all get covered in a single article. - Floydian (talk) 14:38, 30 September 2023 (EDT)

Ontario 7000 series

Table, unsigned. --Rs chen 7754 01:54, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
single article with a table. Similar to state highways to institutions. No 7000-series is notable enough for a standalone article. - Floydian (talk) 14:37, 30 September 2023 (EDT)

Quebec secondary 200-399

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The result of the discussion was that we will cover these. –Fredddie ™ 01:45, 10 November 2023 (EST)

I may be biased, but we should include those. They're not like other secondary systems, as they're treated pretty much like any other provincial highway. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 01:52, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
I have did not realize they were supposed to be a secondary system. If they're not, we should treat them the same as 1-199. –Fredddie ™ 21:56, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
Well, they technically are, but from what I've seen, most of them are maintained just as well as 100-199 (which can be either good or bad, considering this is Québec). LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 04:23, 22 June 2023 (EDT)
If they are functionally similar to the 100s, then they should be treated the same as the 100s. V C 22:09, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

South Carolina secondary

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The result of the discussion was no coverage. –Fredddie ™ 01:14, 11 November 2023 (EST)

Inclined to say no coverage, mostly hidden numbers. --Rs chen 7754 23:47, 20 June 2023 (EDT)

South Dakota county routes

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No. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 22:50, 24 October 2023 (EDT)

Do we have any articles as it is? Why would we? –Fredddie ™ 01:51, 5 July 2023 (EDT)
Lmao T C N7JM 06:17, 31 August 2023 (EDT)

Michigan

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The result of the discussion was that there is consensus to move. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 22:41, 24 October 2023 (EDT)

Michigan highways no longer need the highway disambiguator: M-1 (Michigan highway) → M-1 (Michigan). This will also future-proof if we expand elsewhere where motorways are named M-nn.

Additionally, Michigan CDHs would transform from A-2 (Michigan county highway) → A-2 (Michigan). –Fredddie ™ 12:46, 30 June 2023 (EDT)

Support - Only need the state name in the disambiguator since we are a road wiki now. Dough4872 20:04, 30 June 2023 (EDT)

Support. --Rs chen 7754 01:48, 1 July 2023 (EDT)

Support — V C 12:17, 1 July 2023 (EDT)

Support—and for those that need disambiguation by years, I'd suggest "M-56 (Michigan, 1919–1957)". In fact, that could be the overall standard when we need to include years: append it after the state name. In the case of concurrent duplicates, the state name gets preceded by a city/county or something else, so "M-28 Business (Ishpeming–Negaunee, Michigan)" and "M-28 Business (Newberry, Michigan)". Oh wait, that's how it already works, but it would apply to other states too. Imzadi 1979 → 23:48, 4 July 2023 (EDT)

Kansas

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The result of the discussion was that Kansas highways shall be titled K-# (Kansas). The disambiguator shall be required both for consistency with Michigan (and possibly Nebraska?) and because there are K- roads in other countries whose roads we may cover on this wiki in the future. Redirects without the disambiguator shall be welcome until that becomes a reality. T C (Eli) 01:16, 10 November 2023 (EST)

Kansas highways no longer need any disambiguator. K-4 (Kansas highway) → K-4. –Fredddie ™ 12:46, 30 June 2023 (EDT)

I am not sure about removing all the disambiguators. For example, Albania uses K for their municipal roads. Finland uses it for their secondary main class roads. --Rs chen 7754 14:05, 30 June 2023 (EDT)
I would leave them at least at K-4 (Kansas) for consistency with Michigan. Imzadi 1979 → 16:43, 30 June 2023 (EDT)

Agreed. It's obvious to us, it may not be to others. Dave (talk) 16:49, 30 June 2023 (EDT)

I am fine with consistency! –Fredddie ™ 18:10, 30 June 2023 (EDT)

I also agree we should leave the state-name disambiguator per the above. Dough4872 20:04, 30 June 2023 (EDT)

Use K-X (Kansas). V C 12:19, 1 July 2023 (EDT)

Redirects from K-4→K-4 (Kansas) would be welcome, though. (At least until we start carrying Albania, Finland, et al.) —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 22:16, 16 July 2023 (EDT)

I would support this. --Rs chen 7754 22:56, 24 October 2023 (EDT)

State highways where state is part of name

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The result of the discussion was topic closed as incoherent.

I don't think disambiguating would necessarily work for Iowa. We're a "highway" state, so Highway 100 (Iowa) would be correct-ish, but it wouldn't feel right. I'd be more inclined to just be Iowa 100 and leave the word highway out entirely. –Fredddie ™ 19:22, 1 July 2023 (EDT)

can you explain what you mean by "it" in "it is not obvious"? You have Iowa as an example, but I'm not sure what other states would apply without clarification on "it".Dave (talk) 00:44, 2 July 2023 (EDT)

Sorry about that. I originally had my first comment in the section above this one. I mean states where the state name is an integral part of the highway name. Hopefully the new header clears that up. –Fredddie ™ 01:45, 2 July 2023 (EDT)

Can you go into more detail about the state name being an integral part of the highway name, both in general and specifically for Iowa? I am thinking of those states where the routes are referred to in print as ST X (where ST is the postal abbreviation). I used passive voice because I am not sure how we are going to factor common usage versus how someone at the DOT would speak the route designation. V C 12:46, 2 July 2023 (EDT)

I guess it's one of those things that makes perfect sense in my head, but falls apart when I try to explain it. My mind keeps going to places like Iowa or Illinois that use 'Highway' or 'Route' for all highways or routes regardless of classification. Iowans call US 30 "Highway 30" and Illinoisans "Route 30" but it's the same road. –Fredddie ™ 16:27, 2 July 2023 (EDT)

Interstate Highways

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The result of the discussion was no change from current practices. –Fredddie ™ 23:29, 15 November 2023 (EST)

I wouldn't have a separate debate. Whichever option wins the debate for US highways I'd just use that same formatting, with the obvious substitution of "Interstate" for "U.S. Route" Dave (talk) 16:49, 30 June 2023 (EDT)

The way I reading this is that you would add the word Route to Interstate titles: Interstate 5 → Interstate Route 5? –Fredddie ™ 18:37, 30 June 2023 (EDT)

Dope! Thanks for catching that. Fixed. Dave (talk) 18:42, 30 June 2023 (EDT)

Project scope

We probably need a policy page on what is and is not desirable on this wiki. This should include both geographic extent (only U.S. and Canada to begin with?) and what constitutes too minor to be worth having an article over (primary state highways and up, like the status quo from Wikipedia?). Scott5114 (talk) 23:04, 18 June 2023 (EDT)

International

One day I would like to incorporate all the (notable) roads, worldwide. Wegenwiki does a decent job at this, so it is possible.

On the flip side of the coin, that day does not need to be today and we should focus right now on the countries where we have an active editor base. While invites are still going out, that is currently the US and Canada. If editors show up wanting to edit other countries and display enough commitment/competence I don't think we should stop them from editing those countries. Should there be mass deletions on enwiki, we might have to revisit this to make sure the information is not lost, however.

As far as all of the border cases and less notable highways, perhaps it's best to come up with a list of categories and go from there. --Rs chen 7754 23:28, 18 June 2023 (EDT)

I think probably the best thing we could do for the other countries' articles is put a process in place to request an expansion of the scope to cover that country. Perhaps a prerequisite would be having the editor(s) requesting an expansion write something like five draft articles to judge availability of sources and commitment to the project, and then we would import any articles we had at that time. Scott5114 (talk) 04:17, 19 June 2023 (EDT)

Indeed, though we should allow for work already live on English Wikipedia to qualify.

At some point I would want to revisit this and start allowing for at least lists or basic system articles to be created in every country. Ideally not before 2024, though if there is a mass deletion of content on enwiki, maybe sooner. --Rs chen 7754 11:50, 19 June 2023 (EDT)

For the moment, let's get the US and Canada running. That fits closest to AARoad's mission statement. From there, we can assess bringing in other countries as we build infrastructure, both technological and personal. Imzadi 1979 → 13:40, 19 June 2023 (EDT)

Agree with Imzadi here on "let's not worry about this right now", but I wanted to clarify for Rschen that the reason why I suggested requiring five new articles is to evaluate whether the proposer is likely to stick around and actually maintain the project, or if they're just going to bounce once they get their favorite country's articles up. (So crediting enwp work toward that wouldn't really satisfy answer the question the process would be asking.) Scott5114 (talk) 22:48, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

I think we could look at their track record and see how active they are. Once someone has put in a lot of investment, they're probably going to want to keep those articles going. --Rs chen 7754 16:42, 24 June 2023 (EDT)

I agree it would be nice to cover as much of the world as possible, but let’s focus on the US and Canada first. Dough4872 16:05, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
Eventually, yes. –Fredddie ™ 21:56, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
Editor base might be an issue here, but I think it would make sense to add Mexico first once the US and Canada are stable, since it's the other major country in North America and it has highway connections to the US. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 22:27, 3 September 2023 (EDT)

There is a signup page at AARoads:International. Right now the idea is only to see where the interest is. --Rs chen 7754 23:41, 4 October 2023 (EDT)

Lesser-notable highways

Do we want to discuss this by system? CA county highways (currently RCS) are a lot different than say, Virginia secondary highways. --Rs chen 7754 19:25, 19 June 2023 (EDT)

Yeah that might help, since there is so much variance by state/province. Dough4872 19:33, 19 June 2023 (EDT)

There are four options for all of these: separate article, RCS list, table, nothing. If any route is more notable than the others it would typically be classified with, it could always get a separate article. There will be more of these added later. --Rs chen 7754 22:19, 19 June 2023 (EDT)

If there is no consensus I would suggest importing the status quo. --Rs chen 7754 01:59, 20 June 2023 (EDT)

Without going into detail in every section below, when it comes to secondary designations, I would create stand-alone articles on them if the state in question includes them on their official state highway map. Other clues for me are if the designation is used on BGSs along freeways for interchanges with them or intersection signage on surface highways. If these sorts of attributes are met, then we're talking about a true secondary destination and not merely an inventory number. Imzadi 1979 → 14:30, 20 June 2023 (EDT)

My default vote for all of these (except where noted) is we should have listicles for the class of roads. Articles are fine for the ones among them that have say more than 2 paragraphs of content available. (excluding bs filler stuff like "is not part of the NHS") Moabdave (talk) 14:27, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

State highways that only serve institutions

I think an RCS list would be a good idea for covering states that have a large collection of short state highways serving institutions such as Virginia. Dough4872 23:25, 19 June 2023 (EDT)
This is the format of the lists in Minnesota and Utah (among other states), so sure. –Fredddie ™ 21:56, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
An RCS list or table might be justified for these, but only if we can come up with a uniform definition of what constitutes an "institution". However, would there be much of a difference between an article on one of these and one for a highway of the same length with a town at the end of it? Scott5114 (talk) 00:09, 22 June 2023 (EDT)
I'm on the same page as Scott, I think. Speaking from a Minnesota perspective, there are quite a few short "U.S. Route to population center" state highways that get standalone articles basically uncontested while the "state institution" ones get put into an RCS list. Aside from a few edge cases of designations that exist solely to loop around one plot of land, there isn't really a fundamental difference between these routes. I want to say both routes should get standalone articles, as I don't think it's a hot take to say that primary state highways should be allowed standalone articles if the content is there to support them. But I'm not sure that's the case for all of these routes. T C N7JM 06:59, 31 August 2023 (EDT)
Going off of what Scott said, we could just fold this into the MURA section for lists. A list is fine if it has a logical grouping that is clearly defined and sourced in the lead if it's not immediately obvious. That being said, since we're not beholden to enwiki's notability shenanigans, the highways serving state institutions should be split out. We can keep the list as a capstone article that talks about the law(s) that said state hospitals or whatever had to be connected to the state highway system. –Fredddie ™ 21:08, 24 October 2023 (EDT)

Alabama county routes

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The result of the discussion was system article only unless you can really justify a highway. –Fredddie ™ 23:47, 15 November 2023 (EST)

No coverage except possibly for roads notable on their own. V C 19:21, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
- Actually, I would be fine with a County highways in Alabama system article. V C 19:37, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
Maybe a list, but probably no standalone articles unless one is particularly interesting for some reason (like it's an old alignment or has a cool bridge or something like that). Scott5114 (talk) 00:09, 22 June 2023 (EDT)

Arkansas county roads

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The result of the discussion was a system article, but no other coverage. –Fredddie ™ 23:48, 15 November 2023 (EST)

Inclined to say no, not always signed, highly variable. --Rs chen 7754 23:41, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
Systems article, but no coverage of individual county highways unless they are notable. V C 18:51, 28 June 2023 (EDT)

Arizona county roads

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The result of the discussion was only the routes that are historic USH routes. –Fredddie ™ 23:49, 15 November 2023 (EST)

Maricopa County Route 85 is abbreviated MC 85. This is notable as MC 85 is a major thoroughfare in the Phoenix metro area and a former section of both US 80 and SR 85. If this doesn't warrant its own article, it should at least later become part of SR 85, when the Arizona articles are imported. — MatthewAnderson707 (talk) 02:30, 26 June 2023 (EDT)
Mohave County Route 91 (CR 91) comprises the entirety of old US 91 in Arizona. I'd recommend it be a section of a US 91 in Arizona article, or CR 91 being the main article with US 91 being a sub-section in the history section. Since its essentially the exact same thing. — MatthewAnderson707 (talk) 02:30, 26 June 2023 (EDT)
- I'll make you a deal—if you make U.S. Route 91 in Arizona a thing, I'll make U.S. Route 91 in Nevada a thing. :) —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 13:35, 26 August 2023 (EDT)
Possibly a list of notable Mohave County Routes. Ones that operate as significant or thoroughfare roads, since Mohave County has tons of them that literally make up only a few residential streets and what not. I'd put CR 1 (former SR 95 around Golden Shores), CR 10 (former US 66 - Topock to I-10 south of Kingman), CR 20 (major county road connecting Kingman to communities north inaccessible by other roads), CR 25 (similar situation to CR 20), CR 91 (former US 91) and CR 125 (former SR 62) as good examples for notable county roads. — MatthewAnderson707 (talk) 02:30, 26 June 2023 (EDT)

California

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Alphanumeric routes will be listicles, other counties will generally have no coverage. --Rs chen 7754 22:38, 28 November 2023 (EST)

California county routes (alphanumeric system)

RCS, but some might be good enough for separate. --Rs chen 7754 02:04, 20 June 2023 (EDT)

California county routes (other counties)

If they're like Lake County where almost everything is a CR, nothing. --Rs chen 7754 02:04, 20 June 2023 (EDT)

Colorado county routes

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The result of the discussion was a system article, but no other coverage. –Fredddie –Fredddie ™ 23:50, 15 November 2023 (EST)

[3] - didn't really strike me as notable. --Rs chen 7754 23:44, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
Systems article, but no coverage of individual highways unless they are notable. V C 18:52, 28 June 2023 (EDT)

Georgia county routes

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The result of the discussion was a system article, but no other coverage. –Fredddie –Fredddie ™ 23:50, 15 November 2023 (EST)

Systems article, but no coverage of individual routes unless they are notable. V C 18:53, 28 June 2023 (EDT)

Idaho county routes

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The result of the discussion was a system article, but no other coverage. –Fredddie –Fredddie ™ 23:51, 15 November 2023 (EST)

Systems article, but no coverage of individual routes unless they are notable. V C 21:00, 28 June 2023 (EDT)

Indiana county roads

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The result of the discussion was a system article, but no other coverage. –Fredddie –Fredddie ™ 23:51, 15 November 2023 (EST)

Systems article, but no coverage of individual county roads unless they are notable. V C 21:01, 28 June 2023 (EDT)

Iowa spurs

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The Iowa spurs will be in tables. --Rs chen 7754 12:37, 25 November 2023 (EST)

Iowa used to have a robust system of spurs very similar to Kansas. A lot of the lowest-volume roads were removed in 1980 and the rest (save one or two) were removed in 2003. Most of these roads started at the connecting road and ended at the intersection closest to the town post office. Over the years, I went back and forth on if those should be an RCS list or a routelist table. I decided upon the routelist table because after a while, there's only so much you can say about a 1-to-3-mile road surrounded by cornfields. If someone wants to create all of the standalone articles, I won't get in their way. That begin said, I recommend the status quo. –Fredddie ™ 22:49, 23 June 2023 (EDT)

Iowa county routes

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The result of the discussion was system article is in place. No other coverage –Fredddie –Fredddie ™ 23:51, 15 November 2023 (EST)

No individual routes or county lists. The draft I had been writing for years about the county road system, but could never publish it because reasons, I could publish here. –Fredddie ™ 22:01, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

Kansas spurs

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On English Wikipedia, bannered spurs are covered in the same articles as their respective parents (e.g., K-23 Spur in K-23), while town connectors are merged into a single long article with brief descriptions of each route. This approach seems to me reasonable, since each route is still findable on a search by designation (e.g., "K-86" typed into browser search plugin bar, or "en wiki K-86" in the search bar on mobile). (An addition to the to-do list: spurs article does not include the short-lived spurs off then newly constructed I-235 in south Wichita.) Argatlam (talk) 23:48, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
We should keep the existing scheme, with standalone articles if any of the spurs are particularly notable. Several of the spurs are Good Articles in Wikipedia; we will need to decide whether those are worth keeping standalone. V C 21:43, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
The existing scheme is fine. If someone's bothered to split one out and write enough about it that it made GA on Wikipedia, no harm in keeping it separate. (We should only combine routes when there's truly nothing to say about them.) Scott5114 (talk) 00:09, 22 June 2023 (EDT)

Michigan CDH and county roads

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County-designated highways will continue to have notability. County roads will continue to be in lists. --Rs chen 7754 23:23, 23 November 2023 (EST)

The county-designated highways function as a pseudo-secondary highway system in the state. Unlike other county roads, they're drawn on the MDOT map in black instead of gray, and they have their designations noted with pentagon markers. They're marked on BGSs/junction signage as well. So exit 326 on I-75 in Cheboygan County has a C-66 on the BGSs, but exit 264 in Crawford County omits CR 612. These two factors satisfy my secondary test for some sort of state-derived notability.
Based on all of the governmental nuances and importance of the county road commissions, I would at a minimum support the creation of county-level lists of primary county roads in the absence of external deletion/notability pressures, but that's a very long-term project. At least with the primary CRs, I'd use a GNG-style test for stand-alone articles outside of the CDHs, which are technically primary CRs. Imzadi 1979 → 14:30, 20 June 2023 (EDT)

Mississippi 700-900s

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The result of the discussion was No comments, leave as status quo (listicle). Rs chen 7754 14:14, 24 November 2023 (EST)

Mississippi county routes

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The result of the discussion was no comments in 4 months, so no coverage. –Fredddie –Fredddie ™ 23:53, 15 November 2023 (EST)

Missouri county routes

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The result of the discussion was a system article, but no other coverage. –Fredddie –Fredddie ™ 23:54, 15 November 2023 (EST)

Systems article, but no coverage of individual routes unless they are notable. V C 21:10, 28 June 2023 (EDT)

New Jersey county routes (500-599)

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Will be included with individual articles. --Rs chen 7754 01:31, 18 November 2023 (EST)

Pretty much a secondary system, with a lot of them being just as important, if not more important, than state routes. I'm for their inclusion. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 02:05, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
The 500-series county routes are essentially a secondary state highway system with many routes spanning as much length as state highways, so these roads can have individual articles. Dough4872 08:46, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
Standalone articles. V C 21:53, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
These routes exist at the same level as or higher than plenty of other state routes- if we're gonna keep NJ 167, these should be kept too. BMACS1002 (talk) 15:53, 25 June 2023 (EDT)

New Jersey 600-800 CRs

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These will be handled in tables. --Rs chen 7754 14:17, 24 November 2023 (EST)

These roads are best handled in tables by-county since there isn’t much to say about them. Dough4872 08:46, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
In the case where a route is notable enough to have its own article, it's usually better off to call it by its road, rather than route, name; never once have I heard a single New-Jerseyan refer to a 600-series route by its number. BMACS1002 (talk) 15:53, 25 June 2023 (EDT)

Ohio county routes

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No comments in 4 months, so status quo (no coverage). --Rs chen 7754 14:17, 24 November 2023 (EST)

Oklahoma secondary state routes

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Will be covered in the parent route. --Rs chen 7754 16:57, 25 November 2023 (EST)

Currently covered as part of the parent route (OK-74B is covered in OK-74). This remains the best way to handle these. Scott5114 (talk) 00:09, 22 June 2023 (EDT)

Utah county roads

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No coverage by default. --Rs chen 7754 20:11, 27 November 2023 (EST)

AFAIK only San Juan County even bothers to sign them, and most of those are dirt roads. Coverage only for ones where enough info exists to support them. Moabdave (talk) 14:42, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

Vermont 9xxx roads

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Will be convered in tables. --Rs chen 7754 14:17, 24 November 2023 (EST)

Table. V C 22:20, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

Wisconsin CTH

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Will be a systems article and no coverage of individual articles. --Rs chen 7754 14:17, 24 November 2023 (EST)

System article, but no coverage of individual highways unless they're notable. (I don't think we have any articles currently, unless you count former state highways and the like.) TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 13:21, 30 August 2023 (EDT)

Wyoming county routes

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No comments, no coverage. --Rs chen 7754 12:48, 2 December 2023 (EST)

County roads

For the US, I don't think we should change how county roads are titled. (County|Parish) (Road|Route|State-Aid Highway|Trunk Highway) \s?\d+\s? $<name> (County|Parish), <state>$ seems to work for us. This takes into account the Michigan CDH proposal above.

But what about Canadian county roads? I think Ontario is the only province that has any coverage. Should we use the same format as U.S. county roads? Should we add Ontario to the end of the disambiguator? Here's a list showing what that would be like.

Extended content

Chatham-Kent Road x
City Road x (Kawartha Lakes, Ontario)
Hamilton Road X
Ottawa Road x
Municipal Road x (Greater Sudbury, Ontario)
Municipal Road x (Prince Edward County, Ontario)
Municipal Road x (Muskoka District Municipality, Ontario)
Regional Road x (Durham Region, Ontario)
Regional Road x (Halton Region, Ontario)
Regional Road x (Niagara Region, Ontario)
Regional Road x (Peel Region, Ontario)
Regional Road x (Waterloo Region, Ontario)
Regional Road x (York Region, Ontario)
County Road x (Brant County, Ontario)
County Road x (Bruce County, Ontario)
County Road x (Dufferin County, Ontario)
County Road x (Elgin County, Ontario)
County Road x (Essex County, Ontario)
County Road x (Frontenac County, Ontario)
County Road x (Grey County, Ontario)
County Road x (Haldimand County, Ontario)
County Road x (Halliburton County, Ontario)
County Road x (Hastings County, Ontario)
County Road x (Huron County, Ontario)
County Road x (Lambton County, Ontario)
County Road x (United Counties of Leeds and Grenville, Ontario)
County Road x (Lennox and Addington County, Ontario)
County Road x (Middlesex County, Ontario)
County Road x (Norfolk County, Ontario)
County Road x (Northumberland County, Ontario)
County Road x (Oxford County, Ontario)
County Road x (Perth County, Ontario)
County Road x (Peterborough County, Ontario)
County Road x (United Counties of Prescott and Russell, Ontario)
County Road x (Renfrew County, Ontario)
County Road x (Simcoe County, Ontario)
County Road x (United Counties of Stormont, Dundas and Glengarry, Ontario)
County Road x (Wellington County, Ontario)
District Road x (Algoma District, Ontario)
District Road x (Cochrane District, Ontario)
District Road x (Kenora District, Ontario)
District Road x (Manitoulin District, Ontario)
District Road x (Nipissing District, Ontario)
District Road x (Parry Sound District, Ontario)
District Road x (Rainy River District, Ontario)
District Road x (Sudbury District, Ontario)
District Road x (Thunder Bay District, Ontario)
District Road x (Timiskaming District, Ontario)

I added Toronto for completeness, but I don't think the city has municipal numbered roads. –Fredddie ™ 22:52, 5 July 2023 (EDT)

I agree we should keep the same article titles for US county routes and use the same format for county routes in Canada as well. Dough4872 06:39, 6 July 2023 (EDT)

This works well with my idea that we generally title articles as "<type> <number> (<place>)" where place could be more or less specific as appropriate based on the type involved. Imzadi 1979 → 13:02, 10 July 2023 (EDT)

To that point, I was thinking about how disambiguators are rare for placenames outside the U.S. Since this isn't Wikipedia, we could require disambiguators for sub-provincial divisions. –Fredddie ™ 15:12, 10 July 2023 (EDT)

Replacement for Project Navigator

At the very least, having the template of the WP:USRD navigator was a good guide into how the project as it existed then was structured. Do we want to reintroduce that concept so new users can navigate the departments and task forces and whatnot? If so, how might it be done? BMACS 1002 21:25, 5 November 2023 (EST)

It still exists at {{United States project navigation}} but it needs to be cleaned up. –Fredddie ™ 21:36, 5 November 2023 (EST)

I have taken a pass at some cleanup but more needs to be done. --Rs chen 7754 01:49, 10 November 2023 (EST)

Kentucky

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The rural secondary system and supplemental systems will remain listicles. Of course, more notable routes can continue to be split out. It is assumed that primary secondary routes (the class above the two mentioned) remain notable enough for their own articles. --Rs chen 7754 19:33, 22 November 2023 (EST)

Kentucky rural secondary system

These routes are already organized as RCS with the supplemental roads, and they should stay that way. V C 21:39, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

Is there a source for what constitutes a primary versus secondary route? If so, we could treat them the same way we do Texas FMs. Scott5114 (talk) 00:09, 22 June 2023 (EDT)
- Yes, KYTC's State Primary Road System page has a reference to the state law defining the four types and describes the four types. This definition coming from the state was the key distinction for me creating the listicles. The key different between Kentucky and Texas is that Kentucky uses one numbering system for all four types. V C 21:15, 23 June 2023 (EDT)
I wouldn't be opposed to articles for the more notable of these routes on a case-by-case basis, now that notability is less of a concern. (Of course, this may be a moot point unless we get an active Kentucky editor.) TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 12:30, 19 September 2023 (EDT)
For as much work as VC put into those pages, they should stay as is. –Fredddie ™ 22:23, 16 November 2023 (EST)
Not inclined to make mass changes from the status quo at this moment. --Rs chen 7754 15:06, 21 November 2023 (EST)

Kentucky supplemental

These routes are already organized as RCS with the rural secondary highways, and they should stay that way. V C 21:39, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

What VC said; aside from cases where one of these lines up with a city arterial or something like that, I doubt any of these are independently notable. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 00:40, 25 October 2023 (EDT)
For as much work as VC put into those pages, they should stay as is. –Fredddie ™ 22:23, 16 November 2023 (EST)
Not inclined to make mass changes from the status quo at this moment. --Rs chen 7754 15:06, 21 November 2023 (EST)

Navboxes vs categories

Just wondering what everyone thinks about getting rid of navboxes (like Template:Newfoundland and Labrador highways) in favor of the adjacent categories (Category:Newfoundland and Labrador provincial highways). I'll try to compile a list, but I wanted to get a generic conversation going. –Fredddie ™ 20:33, 13 September 2023 (EDT)

Not an exhaustive list

Template:Alberta provincial highways

Template:Alberta Provincial Highways (redir)

Template:BCHighways

Template:MBHighways

Template:Roads in Winnipeg

Template:WPGCityRoute (redir)

Template:Newfoundland and Labrador highways

Template:NS Roads and Highways

Template:Ontario Provincial Highways

Template:Ontario King's Highways

Template:Ontario Secondary Highways

Template:Ontario Tertiary Highways

Template:Ontario Controlled Access Highways

Template:Prince Edward Island provincial highways

Template:Quebec Autoroutes

Template:Quebec Routes (100-199)

Template:Secondary Highways in Quebec (200-series)

Template:Secondary Highways in Quebec (300-series)

Template:Saskatchewan Provincial Highways

Template:Trans-Canada

Template:Interstates

Template:U.S. Routes

Template:US Highways (redir)

I've long hated navboxes that are redundant to categories.Dave (talk) 21:48, 13 September 2023 (EDT)

I’m fine with getting rid of the navboxes in favor of categories as they both serve the same function of linking together common articles. The categories are better because they don’t pollute the “what links here” feature like the navboxes do. Dough4872 22:31, 13 September 2023 (EDT)

I'd drop the navboxes in favor of the categories. Imzadi 1979 → 02:15, 16 September 2023 (EDT)

Way, way back in the day the navboxes were laid out in a grid, so that the top row would be 1-9, second row would be 10-19, then 20-29, and so on. The cells where numbers were skipped were left blank. In the US and Interstate systems, all the primaries end up the same columns. I like this layout since it gives you a better idea of what numbers are and aren't used. (In fact, I replicated it at what is now AARoads:Oklahoma for my own use, so head on over there if you can't visualize what I'm talking about.) But you can't do that on enwp because it's "unencyclopedic". Would anyone feel differently about the navboxes if they were laid out like this? —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 23:20, 13 September 2023 (EDT)

I might be okay with that for primary Interstate and US routes, but it would not be a good idea for state highways because there would be too many routes on there. Overall I favor the categories better. Dough4872 15:40, 14 September 2023 (EDT)

I think this works best for project pages and would take up too much room on articles. Imzadi 1979 → 02:15, 16 September 2023 (EDT)

I will note that a number of these were nominated for deletion at AARoads:Deletion requests. --Rs chen 7754 01:50, 10 November 2023 (EST)

Ferries

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Ferries that are government run will be included, but other ferries will not be. --Rs chen 7754 19:29, 22 November 2023 (EST)

Yes if/only if they are run by the state and functionally serve as extensions to state highways. No to privately run ferries. --Rs chen 7754 00:53, 8 November 2023 (EST)
Like bridges and tunnels, I think ferries are outside the scope of this wiki, but we can always mention them in articles about numbered highways that have ferries. Dough4872 07:19, 8 November 2023 (EST)
My thoughts on ferries are similar to my thoughts on bridges and tunnels; we should import the ones that are important to highway coverage (e.g. state-run pieces of state highways, ferries with an official highway designation like the SS Badger) and leave everything else. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 12:40, 8 November 2023 (EST)
I think TC31 has the right idea here. Things like the Washington State Ferries and SS Badger are worth including, but the four ferry companies that MoDOT lists on their website are not. A quick Googling shows that aside from Washington ferries, New York City, Illinois, Maine, Texas, and Wisconsin seem to have some state-run ferries, though I did not go in depth to see if they connected to state highways. Perhaps our ferry coverage could be in the Annex? –Fredddie™ 22:22, 16 November 2023 (EST)
- Illinois and Wisconsin at least have ferries on state highways (the Kampsville Ferry and Merrimac Ferry respectively), though I'm less familiar with the other states. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 00:45, 17 November 2023 (EST)

Regional Task Forces

By what process do we want to reinvigorate the task forces, and how will they be advertised? I've established discussion above about the departments, but specifics about regional task forces can lie here. Do we want task force heads? Do we want to rename them to something more DOT-ish? I say yes to both. At bare minimum, links to each task force should lie in each state's Category. BMACS 1002 21:21, 5 November 2023 (EST)

We should centralize as much as we can and get rid of verbiage that belongs in AARoads policy. I plan on incorporating more resources into those pages and that is what I see them mostly being in the future. There are pros and cons to having task force heads and I would have to think about that one before giving an opinion. --Rs chen 7754 21:45, 5 November 2023 (EST)

Given the current size of our editing community, we don't have a need to divide things too much, at least on the discussion side at this time. Keeping with Rschen's point, I would keep things fairly centralized. My mental model is to have Departments as a top level, both for central topics like Maps, Policy or Deletion and for countries. Within those areas, we'd have Bureaus for subtopics or subregions. A Michigan Bureau in the US Department could host the state-specific resources for that state without a need to set up anything else. Imzadi 1979 → 07:42, 11 November 2023 (EST)

U.S. Highways

Articles belonging to the United States Numbered Highway System should be named U.S. Highway nn instead of U.S. Route nn.

National - U.S. Route 1 → U.S. Highway 1

State Detail - U.S. Route 30 in Iowa → U.S. Highway 30 in Iowa –Fredddie ™ 12:46, 30 June 2023 (EDT)

Support. Imzadi 1979 → 16:42, 30 June 2023 (EDT)

Needs more work I'm ok with having a vote for Route vs Highway on the national highway articles. However, there are regions where route is indeed the better choice, so I would not impose one word on all states. For example UDOT consistently uses "route" across the board in documentation. My preference for state detail articles is U.S. Route 30 in Iowa → U.S. Route/Highway 30 (Iowa) (choice of Route or Highway should be consistent for the state and based on local and/or DOT usage)- This makes it clear the Iowa is for disambiguation and not part of the title. I've seen Google Maps many times borrow the wikipedia title. It also makes it easier to pipe link and have scripts parse out the disambiguation portion of the title when it's not needed or desired. Dave (talk) 16:49, 30 June 2023 (EDT)

Oppose this suggestion. Parentheses implies disambiguation, while "in Iowa" implies that we're talking about a part of a larger whole. In the case of a state detail article, we are not disambiguating between multiple highways with the same name.

I would also not support splitting the nomenclature of a nationally applied designation in the article titles. We should be consistent from coast to coast. Imzadi 1979 → 19:55, 30 June 2023 (EDT)

I don’t support this proposal entirely because, as Dave mentioned, some states use “route” instead of “highway” to refer to their US roads. I think the title for state-detail pages and national-detail pages not split into state-detail pages should be “U.S. Route X” or “U.S. Highway X” depending on the local term used. However, we may need to vote which term to use for national-detail pages that are split into state-detail pages. As for state-detail page titles, I prefer “U.S. Route X in Statename” since that clearly shows we are referring to the segment of a longer US route in a state and not a separate highway as the parentheses disambiguator may suggest. Dough4872 20:04, 30 June 2023 (EDT)

I've got to be honest, my teeth grit at the thought of having my baby titled "U.S. Highway 50 in Nevada". If that is the approved convention I might just add a hatnote to the article that says "Note: this article was not written by an ignorant redneck transplant to Nevada. Please to not attack the author for any perceived ignorance from the article title. It was forced on him, in the name of consistency" I get it, that if we agree consistency is king, half the country is going to have to grit their teeth somewhat, but that one truly does sound baaaaad. And it's funny, because "U.S. Highway 40 in Colorado" sounds normal to me. Colorado does seem to use Highway as much as or more than Route. Similarly I've come to accept U.S. Highway 395 as you hear that from area transplants who are at least making an effort to not sound like Southern Californians (or whatever), but U.S. Highway 50 is fingernails on the chalkboard. ;) Dave (talk) 10:54, 1 July 2023 (EDT)

Comment — I don't have a strong preference on whether we use Route or Highway, as long as we are consistent. Highway sounds a little better to me. But AASHTO's committee is the Special Committee on U.S. Route Numbering. In that case, I don't know whether "U.S. Route" refers to the U.S. Highway System specifically or all federally numbered highways, which also include the Interstates and *cringe* Bike Routes. However, I am opposed to inconsistently naming the state-detail articles with Route and Highway. It would be confusing to have articles titled U.S. Highway 30 in Iowa and U.S. Route 30 in Illinois. V C 12:30, 1 July 2023 (EDT)

Comment I think this could be confusing in Ohio, which technically distinguishes between a "route" and a "highway" (the portion of a route that the state owns). I don't know if other states make the same distinction though. – Minh Nguyễn ^💬 22:45, 17 July 2023 (EDT)

A Waze forum thread reminded me that Oregon takes this to an extreme: a state route consists of multiple state highways that are independently numbered. [4] – Minh Nguyễn ^💬 20:06, 11 November 2023 (EST)

Comment If we stick with a uniform standard, what do we do about the better known U.S. Routes/Highways where one version is ingrained in popular culture? If we go with Highway, we end up with "U.S. Highway 66" despite what decades of Americana would suggest, but the Route convention leaves us with stuff like "U.S. Route 101 in California" and "U.S. Route 61 in Minnesota" that also go against the popular name. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 00:56, 4 September 2023 (EDT)

I've lived within earshot of U.S. Route 101 in California for several years. Here at least, "U.S. Route 101" is just as popular as "U.S. Highway 101", which is to say, not very. If we want to sound idiomatic, we have to say "Highway 101" or "U.S. 101". Otherwise, anything else is understood as a formality that doesn't have to sound natural. – Minh Nguyễn ^💬 19:52, 11 November 2023 (EST)

Either would be okay with me but we should be consistent nationwide, if only for our own sanity. --Rs chen 7754 23:39, 10 November 2023 (EST)

"U.S." vs. "US"

We have another mismatch or inconsistency issue to discuss. Currently on ENWP, we abbreviate the designations of United States Numbered Highways as "US #", although a few states have that hyphenated. We spell out the full names as "U.S. Highway/Route #" in text and "U.S. Route #" in the titles. As a pure styling matter, I think we should drop the periods in the titles and full name. This would follow the styling guidance from The Chicago Manual of Style, 16th ed., from 2010 and the 17th ed. from 2017. CMOS is a pretty standard style guide for American writing, and I think we should move toward following it. If nothing else, we'd have a consistency between punctuation on full name and abbreviation. Imzadi 1979 → 12:33, 3 July 2023 (EDT)

Oppose. I'm for the dots. Even for the abbreviations. –Fredddie ™ 16:23, 3 July 2023 (EDT)

I’m fine with either, but think we should be consistent with using either dots or no dots for both the full title and the abbreviation, as in we would have U.S. Route X (U.S. X) or US Route X (US X). Dough4872 16:47, 3 July 2023 (EDT)

My first choice is the status quo. I can't justify that choice, only that I'm used to it and the inconsistency doesn't bother me. However, if the "consensus" (and I gag as i type that) is consistency is better I'd rather have no periods. Dave (talk) 01:30, 4 July 2023 (EDT)

I support the status quo. V C 15:14, 5 July 2023 (EDT)

Wikipedia has conditioned me to perceive the dotless form as sloppy. I cannot unsee it. As for consistency, I have a feeling this will force us to start writing "Washington, DC" in countless {{cite report}} invocations, which will take even more getting used to. – Minh Nguyễn ^💬 22:45, 17 July 2023 (EDT)

I'm with Dave here. Support status quo; asked to pick a side, would prefer no periods. T C N7JM 00:02, 17 September 2023 (EDT)

Poll: USH

Many of the discussions seem to have gotten confusing, so for less ambiguity I have started another poll. --Rs chen 7754 19:00, 11 November 2023 (EST)

Should national USH articles be titled Route or Highway?

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While this can be revisited later, the majority is currently 5-3 in favor of the status quo, U.S. Route. --Rs chen 7754 17:42, 25 November 2023 (EST)

Highway, purely for aesthetic reasons. BMACS 1002 19:46, 11 November 2023 (EST)
Route. If we must standardize on a single naming convention, then it should be "route". There are states where highways are a subset of routes or even orthogonal to routes; calling routes highways is misleading, especially in the context of distances and junction lists. These situations outweigh the issue of sounding less idiomatic in other states. For those states that conflate the two concepts, "route" is common enough colloquially, in popular culture, and in Wikipedia precedent to overcome any potential confusion. On the other hand, if we standardize on "highway", then we would need to add clarifications to many articles and article sections. – Minh Nguyễn ^💬 19:47, 11 November 2023 (EST)
Route. AASHTO seems to use “route” when referring to individual roads in the system. Also U.S. Highway 66 just doesn’t sound right referring to the most iconic US Route. Dough4872 20:27, 11 November 2023 (EST)
Highway—the system article uses this, the list articles mostly use this, the categories mostly use this, and I think the individual article titles should use this. As a matter of styling, we should be consistent. Imzadi 1979 → 21:32, 11 November 2023 (EST)
Route Except in cases where "Highway" is the official title for all designations in the system, "Route" just makes more sense definitionally. A highway is a physical feature; a route is an abstract means of getting from one place to another that can involve traveling on a highway. T C (Eli) 21:43, 11 November 2023 (EST)
Highway. I presume USRD originally went with Route over Highway because early on the project was mostly people from the Northeast, where Route is the prevailing term. –Fredddie ™ 22:13, 11 November 2023 (EST)
Comment I appreciated the suggestion someone made at one point to adopt the same approach we took with Interstates so long ago: just “U.S. 123” or “US 123”, depending on the outcome of the period debate below. Is there any appetite for this approach? Unlike Wikipedia, we aren’t a general reference encyclopedia, so there’s no risk of confusion with things besides routes/highways that happen to be named after the United States. This would also head off a debate about renaming Interstates to “Interstate Highway 123”, for consistency, which would only further alienate editors from the states that would never call them that. – Minh Nguyễn ^💬 10:49, 16 November 2023 (EST)
Leaning towards Route. I'm torn here, because the arguments are good on both sides. Both "route" and "highway" are somewhat established in the status quo, and both are favored by the relevant authorities (AASHTO uses Route, to the extent FHWA prefers anything it seems to be Highway, and the name of the system uses Highway). And of course, there are plenty of states on both sides who use one name and think the other looks really weird. I'm swayed by Minh and Eli's arguments that, to the extent that there's a distinction between a route and a highway, these are routes, and I also have a bit of status quo bias (i.e. we shouldn't create more work for ourselves without a clear benefit). TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 13:16, 16 November 2023 (EST)
Leaning towards Route, there is no clear answer here (either on merits or on consensus) and I would side with the status quo in that case. --Rs chen 7754 19:41, 22 November 2023 (EST)

Should state-detail USH articles be titled consistently?

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Significant majority 5-2 to keep state-detail USH articles consistent. --Rs chen 7754 17:38, 25 November 2023 (EST)

Yes, otherwise it's just going to overcomplicate things. --Rs chen 7754 19:01, 11 November 2023 (EST)
Yes, per Rschen. BMACS 1002 19:46, 11 November 2023 (EST)
No. I think we can use “U.S. Route X in Statename” or “U.S. Highway X in Statename” in different states depending on whether the state uses “route” or “highway”. Dough4872 20:27, 11 November 2023 (EST)
Yes—as a matter of styling, we should be consistent. Imzadi 1979 → 21:32, 11 November 2023 (EST)
Yes We're not necessarily beholden to what state-level sources use. Consistency just makes for a much easier time writing and navigating. T C (Eli) 21:46, 11 November 2023 (EST)
No. This would clean up the inconsistency we have currently where an article is Route in the title and Highway in the infobox. –Fredddie ™ 22:13, 11 November 2023 (EST)
Yes I realize this is going to make some state-detail articles look off compared to the local convention, but the alternative is having state-detail articles that don't match the title of the national article, which IMO looks worse. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 13:21, 16 November 2023 (EST)

Should periods be used in U.S. in the title?

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Periods will continue to be used in U.S. in the title (3-2). --Rs chen 7754 17:40, 25 November 2023 (EST)

Yes; in my opinion, the fancier the font, the more 'correct' the nomenclature. BMACS 1002 19:46, 11 November 2023 (EST)
Neutral. I don’t have a strong opinion either way on whether or not we use periods as long as we are consistent for both titles and abbreviations. Dough4872 20:27, 11 November 2023 (EST)
No—this is a matter of styling, and we should look to style guides. The Chicago Manual of Style has called for the lack of periods in this abbreviation for over a decade now. We aren't The New York Times, which would still specify "H.I.V." among other abbreviations.
To reply to BMACS above, we've discussed redoing the typefaces for the headings to use Overpass as a homage to highway signs, thus our headings would be sans serif. Also, it's less typing. Imzadi 1979 → 21:32, 11 November 2023 (EST)
No. T C (Eli) 21:46, 11 November 2023 (EST)
Yes. I've never bought the style guide argument and I still don't; we can decide upon any format we want. Ultimately this doesn't matter, but we've used the dots for almost 20 years. –Fredddie ™ 22:13, 11 November 2023 (EST)
Yes if only because to the extent that they're consistent, the various DOTs and agencies that manage these highways use periods in the title. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 13:23, 16 November 2023 (EST)

Should periods be used in U.S. in the in-text abbreviations?

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Periods will not be used in U.S. in the in-text abbreviations. --Rs chen 7754 17:41, 25 November 2023 (EST)

No; using a sans-serif font with that level of formality doesn't feel right. (I fully acknowledge all my votes are vibes-based, but if anyone has a better argument I can be easily swayed). BMACS 1002 19:46, 11 November 2023 (EST)
Neutral. I don’t have a strong opinion either way on whether or not we use periods as long as we are consistent for both titles and abbreviations. Dough4872 20:27, 11 November 2023 (EST)
No—per above and also per the very common practice not to dot the abbreviation in DOT sources. We should keep these two consistently. Imzadi 1979 → 21:32, 11 November 2023 (EST)
No. T C (Eli) 21:47, 11 November 2023 (EST)
Lean yes. Like Dough4872, I think we should be consistent. –Fredddie ™ 22:13, 11 November 2023 (EST)
No Unlike the full names, I don't think the DOTs even use periods for the abbreviations. If we're already abbreviating the name, we don't need to worry about looking formal. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 13:25, 16 November 2023 (EST)

Texas

Texas FM/RMs

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Listicle unless enough content available for standalone. --Rs chen 7754 23:31, 12 December 2023 (EST)

The current coverage model works well (listicle split every 100 routes). It might be nice to also have a table of all 4000 of them, though, for someone who is looking for a quick index and doesn't need the prose. Scott5114 (talk) 00:09, 22 June 2023 (EDT)
I wouldn't be opposed to having more separate articles for the more notable FM/RMs, now that notability is less of a concern. A lot of these used to have their own articles on enwiki. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 12:32, 19 September 2023 (EDT)
I could go either way (RCS listicles or separate articles), but if we did go back to separate articles, would we keep the listicles? –Fredddie™ 15:03, 19 September 2023 (EDT)
- I think we'll want the listicles, since even if we have separate articles for more of the routes, we never had articles on all of them. Some of them just aren't that noteworthy, and others won't attract anyone interested in writing a full article for a long time. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 23:45, 19 November 2023 (EST)
Per TC31 and Scott. --Rs chen 7754 13:06, 25 November 2023 (EST)

Texas Loops/spurs

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Listicle unless enough for standalone. --Rs chen 7754 23:31, 12 December 2023 (EST)

A listicle would suffice for these. Scott5114 (talk) 00:09, 22 June 2023 (EDT)
A lot of the loops are notable, so those can have their own articles; listicles are fine for the rest. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 23:42, 19 November 2023 (EST)
Per TC31. --Rs chen 7754 13:06, 25 November 2023 (EST)

Texas business routes

This discussion has been closed and is preserved as an archive of the decision of the community. Please do not modify it!

Listicle unless enough for standalone. --Rs chen 7754 23:32, 12 December 2023 (EST)

Treat them like any other bannered route. Scott5114 (talk) 00:09, 22 June 2023 (EDT)
Per Scott. --Rs chen 7754 13:06, 25 November 2023 (EST)

Texas Park/rec roads

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Listicles. --Rs chen 7754 23:32, 12 December 2023 (EST)

A listicle would suffice for these. Scott5114 (talk) 00:09, 22 June 2023 (EDT)
RCS. --Rs chen 7754 01:45, 25 June 2023 (EDT)

Annex namespace

On Discord, we have discussed adding an Annex namespace for some of the cruftier things (for lack of a better term) that we will want on our site.

Trivia
Road-related but not really articles
Unsourceable stuff
Highest/lowest AADT

An analogy would how the Star Trek wikis are broken down. The main article space would be Memory Alpha. The cruftier Annex namespace would be Memory Beta.

What do you think? What are some other topics that we can toss into the annex? –Fredddie ™ 01:40, 22 June 2023 (EDT)

As a first approximation, I would say "the annex can include anything you want as long as it's road-related". We should probably put a few limitations on it (we probably don't want to be hosting people's fictional highway plans, for instance) but it would be a good place for anything that can't be easily expressed in the form of an article (or is not sourceable). We may want to put a warning banner on it, for unfamiliar readers, saying that "regular policies do not apply here, so take this info with that in mind". —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 02:10, 22 June 2023 (EDT)

Aww, but I wanted FritzOwl Interstate System to be a thing. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 04:11, 22 June 2023 (EDT)

Don't you mean the FritzOwl System of Coat to Cost Highways? :P —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 04:29, 22 June 2023 (EDT)

Of course, how could I make such a silly mistake? LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 04:30, 22 June 2023 (EDT)

Random thought: Many of our editing resources would probably be of general enough roadgeek interest to go in the Annex, rather than project space. (Things like where to find shield specs, map archives, etc.) —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 03:37, 24 June 2023 (EDT)

I would agree with that. I was also thinking that the speed limits and road sign comparison articles could go there, too. –Fredddie ™ 15:30, 24 June 2023 (EDT)

Maybe this could be a Library: namespace? Imzadi 1979 → 15:33, 24 June 2023 (EDT)

Or the Help namespace that is already built into the wiki. –Fredddie ™ 16:49, 24 June 2023 (EDT)

I'd prefer leaving the help namespace for actual technical documentation on MediaWiki and any extensions we install (meaning if you are an experienced editor here you can just ignore the whole namespace). We could do a library namespace, but I think that kind of unnecessarily silos the editing resources away from the other annex content (many of our editing resources would also be useful for people who are only casual editors here, but have a general interest in roads). If there's anything that is really 100% wiki focused and not useful to someone with general roadgeek interest, the AARoads namespace is the appropriate place for that. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 02:30, 26 June 2023 (EDT)

We actually should import the entire Help: namespace. In looking up MediaWiki extensions, one of the pages suggested doing that. Imzadi 1979 → 05:59, 12 September 2023 (EDT)

Support the proposal overall. --Rs chen 7754 16:23, 24 June 2023 (EDT)

I like the idea for an Annex namespace for information that would be too trivial for main article space. I also like the idea of a Library namespace for editing resources. Dough4872 16:39, 24 June 2023 (EDT)

Would we want this to be searchable on Google? --Rs chen 7754 22:59, 3 July 2023 (EDT)

That's a good question. On the one hand, being searchable and discoverable makes the content more accessible, but on the other, we're not making any guarantees that it is sourced, vetted, or even correct... —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 20:46, 5 July 2023 (EDT)

Annex poll

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The namespace will continue to be searchable on Google. A hatnote or template should be implemented if possible. --Rs chen 7754 23:35, 12 December 2023 (EST)

Do we want the Annex: namespace to be searchable on Google?

No, there is no editorial control and it overemphasizes the more trivial content that we would have. --Rs chen 7754 01:29, 10 November 2023 (EST)
No, with unsourced/unverified content we could be spreading misinformation in people's search results and that's no bueno. --Duke87 01:38, 10 November 2023 (EST)
No since the Annex is more for trivial and unsourced content, it should not show up in Google search results, only mainspace should be searchable on Google. Dough4872 08:07, 10 November 2023 (EST)
The replies above are over-emphasizing some higher ideals of verifiability and notability, while ignoring the desires of an actual lay-person just trying to Google "what highways are numbered 27?" or information on road-sign comparisons… if it's not Googleable then it might at well be sat on your hard-drive gathering dust. So I vote Yes; however, I don't think doing so should be done lightly- Scott suggested a banner saying 'hey, you're probably looking at bogus content jsyk', I think that would need to be implemented; and, if there's any way to encourage mainspace articles to rank above Annex articles I say that ought to happen as well. BMACS 1002 08:29, 10 November 2023 (EST)
It is possible for an administrator to boost and penalize search results in this wiki’s default search tool, and we can also have the search tool omit the Annex: namespace by default. However, we don’t have that kind of direct control over an external search engine. In fact, if the content in the annex is perceived to be of poorer quality or relevance by a search engine such as Google, it may impact the entire site’s rankings for unrelated searches. I recall that MediaWiki has some kind of setting for noncanonical namespaces or so, but I have no idea if Google et al. respect whatever metadata it puts out, versus some hard-coded heuristic to only ignore talk pages. – Minh Nguyễn ^💬 11:41, 10 November 2023 (EST)
Yes. I think BMACS convinced me that if we don't make it searchable, Annex content will be impossible for readers to find unless they're already familiar with the wiki. I think adding a banner to the namespace is a good idea, and if people start putting total crap in there we can always delete it, but I don't want to worry too much about low-quality content in a namespace that doesn't exist yet. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 11:16, 10 November 2023 (EST)
Yes – The no votes are nothing a hatnote can't fix. T C (Eli) 14:04, 10 November 2023 (EST)
Yes - if we're ashamed of some content it doesn't even belong in the annex.Dave (talk) 17:58, 28 November 2023 (EST)
Yes. We can always put a template on it. –Fredddie ™ 16:41, 2 December 2023 (EST)

Unique identifiers

Just stumbled over here thanks to Stephen Harrison's article. Nice work so far.

Since this is not a Wikimedia site, there's no obvious way to link articles here to Wikidata items. It would certainly be possible to create an "AARoads" identifier, but that should have some unique identifier to map to (something that stays the same even if pages here are renamed). Apologies if this has been dealt with somewhere else, but I didn't find anything in the archives here, so I thought I'd suggest it. Guettarda (talk) 12:39, 9 December 2023 (EST)

Like Wikipedia, this wiki is powered by MediaWiki, which assigns a unique numeric identifier to each page. You can see it by clicking the "Page information" link in the Tools section of the sidebar. Wikidata has a AARoads Wiki article ID (P12052) property for linking to this wiki. I've prepared a bulk import of these statements but am waiting for the green light to upload them. Please chime in there if you have any feedback about the test edits I've performed so far. Thanks! – Minh Nguyễn ^💬 16:23, 9 December 2023 (EST)

Article naming conventions

This discussion has been closed and is preserved as an archive of the decision of the community. Please do not modify it!

This discussion appears to have come to a conclusion. The table posted by Fredddie will be the naming conventions. --Rs chen 7754 14:03, 13 December 2023 (EST)

There had been some discussions over there years that "SRNC didn't quite get it right" but none of us were willing to re-litigate. Now that we are moving away from that other site, now is our chance to fix what needs to be fixed, and indeed that is not my intent. So, if you would like to propose a change to SRNC, add a third-level heading below and we can discuss the merits of each proposal individually. –Fredddie ™ 12:41, 30 June 2023 (EDT)

Edit: SRNC and USSH only covered the US but that does not mean we can't discuss other countries here. –Fredddie ™ 12:52, 30 June 2023 (EDT)

Also just to be clear SNRC was a huge debate that decided the naming conventions for Interstate, US, and state highways. We're talking about article naming conventions with this debate. Dave (talk) 19:05, 30 June 2023 (EDT)

Nebraska

This discussion has been closed and is preserved as an archive of the decision of the community. Please do not modify it!

The articles will remain at the status quo. --Rs chen 7754 20:56, 1 December 2023 (EST)

There was some discussion on Discord recently about Nebraska state highways, and it seems NDOT uses N-nn consistently, so following Michigan and Kansas, Nebraska Highway 2 → N-2 (Nebraska). –Fredddie ™ 14:21, 12 September 2023 (EDT)

Support - I’m fine with this if this is how Nebraska primarily refers to their roads. Dough4872 08:08, 10 November 2023 (EST)

I dunno. I've seen a lot of "Nebraska Highway X" and "Nebraska X" from NDOT, as opposed to in Michigan, where it's pretty much exclusively "M-X". No opinion here but I think it's only intended as an abbreviation. T C (Eli) 14:17, 10 November 2023 (EST)

Do not support--While I'm open to being convinced otherwise, the N-nn nomenclature is nowhere near as consistently used on signs in Nebraska as K-nn is in Kansas or M-nn in Michigan. In Kansas, K-nn appears in text quite often on conventional-road distance-to-destination signs, while Nebraska DOT sedulously avoids referring to highways in this context. Also in Kansas, K-nn appears in text on distance-to-destination signs on freeways in rural areas, while Nebraska instead typically uses the appropriate route shield with a town and often the word "EXIT." (Both states typically use shields on interchange sequence signs, which are used only in urban areas.) Michigan DOT frequently uses M-nn in text on black-on-orange construction detour signs; the one example of N-nn on such a sign I can remember occurred on Highway 2 near Ansley over 20 years ago. While the N-nn nomenclature is pretty consistently used in NDOT press releases (which currently go back to 2021 on the live website) and, I think, on plan set title sheets, my sense is that it is far enough from being established in ordinary usage that converting "Highway nn" to "N-nn" leaves us no better off. Argatlam (talk) 14:54, 10 November 2023 (EST)

Oppose per above. --Rs chen 7754 00:20, 26 November 2023 (EST)

<state name> State Route x

This section covers multiple states that are currently named with the format <state name> State Route X. Among them California State Route 1, Nevada State Route 28 and Utah State Route 128.

California State Route 1 → State Route 1 (California). As the movie line goes "This dance is the Brazilian Creep. Of course in Brazil they just call it 'the' Creep". Nobody in CA calls a highway a California State Route, in neither official no colloquial usage. Again, the state name is there for disambiguation, it's not part of the title, adding parenthesis makes that clear. Dave (talk) 16:49, 30 June 2023 (EDT)

I'm not necessarily against this, but I've asked this question on the forum, what would be format for New York? New York State Route could be interpreted many different ways and all could be correct. –Fredddie ™ 17:09, 30 June 2023 (EDT)

State Route 28 (New York). I don't see a need to handle it differently. Am I missing something? Dave (talk) 17:17, 30 June 2023 (EDT)

Is it "New York State" Route 28, New York "State Route" 28, or "New York State Route" 28? https://www.aaroads.com/forum/index.php?topic=33051.0 is the original forum post. –Fredddie ™ 18:08, 30 June 2023 (EDT)

The usual confusion for New York is there is a major city with the same name as the state. To outsiders, when they hear "New York" it's not always immediately clear if it's referring to the city or the state. However, IMHO, State Route 9 (New York) is crystal clear, we're talking about the state here. I'd argue that's more clear than any of the options for interpreting New York State Route 9. Dave (talk) 18:12, 30 June 2023 (EDT)

Generally speaking, I'm in favor of moving the state name to parentheses wherever possible. The trouble is that in a few states, the state name is part of the official type. I believe that New York is one of these states. Imzadi 1979 → 19:49, 30 June 2023 (EDT)

Indeed, this would be my only concern with the proposal. --Rs chen 7754 20:01, 30 June 2023 (EDT)

Having joined Wikipedia after SRNC took place, I am okay with leaving the articles at “Statename Route X” since that’s what I have been familiar with my whole editing career. However, I am not opposed to the “Route X (Statename)” naming convention as many people will often refer to state roads as “Route X” or “Highway X” without the state name depending on the state. Dough4872 20:04, 30 June 2023 (EDT)

If a state includes the state name in their route naming, yeah, let's keep to what's actually used. I guess we'd break those states out of this proposal and group them in proposal of "keep the status quo". However, the states that I'm familiar with, that's not the case.Dave (talk) 21:29, 30 June 2023 (EDT)

That's where I would disagree, I think we would cause confusion if we had some one way and some the other. --Rs chen 7754 00:22, 1 July 2023 (EDT)

Agreed, and the only real benefit to doing the parenthesis thing to begin with is the pipe trick (where if you don't include anything after the | in a link, MediaWiki will autopopulate it with the article title minus any parentheses), so leaving a few states out of that benefit just because their DOT or legislature said so would be rather unfortunate. (Also, I presume we will have the title still be "State Highway" in the states where that is what they're called...if I ever have to call a road in Oklahoma "state route" I will eat enough rocks that I turn into an immortal dragon and rampage across the countryside.) —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 01:07, 1 July 2023 (EDT)

That's my issue with forcing "U.S. Highway 89 in Utah" (or "US. Highway 50 in Nevada") in the U.S. Route proposal above. It makes it sound like that Wikipedia article was written by a transplant who wants all the benefits of moving to the state but refuses to adapt to the culture of the state. Just go to any Utah/Nevada forum and watch as people are mercilessly mocked for saying "The 395" or "The 15". Dave (talk) 10:44, 1 July 2023 (EDT)

And using "U.S. Route 23 in Michigan" makes it sound like an Ohioan picked the title for that highway. Remember, this isn't about article body text but the titles. If you look at ENWP articles now where there is the Route/Highway mismatch in state-detail articles, we already ignore it in the body text and use the appropriate term. Imzadi 1979 → 11:49, 3 July 2023 (EDT)

OK so it sounds like the proposal isn't perceived as bad, but I should reformat it as Old: <state name> State Route/Highway/Road x -> State Route/Highway/Road (<state name>). With the choice of Route/Highway/Road matching what was decided in the prior naming convention poll, unless someone makes a convincing argument that word choice was decided incorrectly last time. Dave (talk) 10:39, 1 July 2023 (EDT)

More generically: <type> <number (<state>). That's essentially what Michigan and Kansas would do above, except the type there is just a letter prefixed onto the number.

Remember to the reverse pipe trick that works on Michigan/Kansas articles now. In writing a new article, a hypothetical "M-999 (Michigan highway)", piping a link to another highway as [[|M-998]] expands to [[M-998 (Michigan highway)|M-998]] upon saving. Putting the CDHs under the same disambiguator enhances the utility of that trick since we're likely to get some additional CDH articles spun out over time.

To add to the discussions above, I'd contemplate Minnesota switching to "Trunk Highway X (Minnesota)" and Wisconsin switching to "State Trunk Highway X (Wisconsin)" since that's the more formal naming. Imzadi 1979 → 17:59, 1 July 2023 (EDT)

I might be the outlier here, but I actually prefer the current disambiguation system. If we have to disambiguate the routes anyway, we might as well make it explicit in the name which system they're part of. This is most relevant in states like Illinois that love to reuse route numbers; if you just say "Route 50" in Illinois, it's not clear if you're talking about the east-west route downstate or Cicero Avenue in Chicago, so you'd need to clarify the latter with "Illinois 50", "State Route 50", or just "Illinois Route 50" anyway. (Of course, I should also add that my strongest opinion on SRNC is that it's ridiculous that this debate ever went to ArbCom in the first place, so I'm not *that* opposed to a switch.) TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 15:39, 19 September 2023 (EDT)

For 48 out of 50 states, if you type the state name into the search bar, most of the results are highways in the state-level system. That's a good thing (and I'd argue Kansas and Michigan should also have some sort of state-name redirect for searchability's sake, but I bet I'm in the minority there). Consistency makes things easier to find and, in my opinion, easier to digest. When I see disambiguating parentheses in the title of a road article, I automatically assume the road is one of multiple identically named routes in the same system, like an auxiliary Interstate number that's reused in multiple states, or two unrelated highways in the same state system with the same number, or the many special routes of Interstates and U.S. Routes. The state highways in South Dakota have nothing to do with those in North Carolina, so why would we name the articles like they do? The factor that most defines these highways is the state in which they're located, so putting that at the front just makes sense to me.

As with Minnesota County State-Aid Highways, we're not beholden to official titles here, and if we were going primarily by colloquialisms, we'd name every California highway article "the <number>". I'd say consistency, readability, and searchability should be our main tenets here. T C N7JM 16:09, 19 September 2023 (EDT)

I gave my opinion above but I never explained why. I originally supported what is the current nomenclature during SRNC. However, three arguments cause me to lean towards making a change: 1) International consistency - otherwise we wind up with things like United Kingdom A1 road 2) Michigan and Kansas 3) Because this is our wiki we can insist on consistent naming schemes and have the means to enforce it, and we can require the parentheses on everything and don't have nonsense like this. --Rs chen 7754 01:48, 20 September 2023 (EDT)

To this I would ask two things.

Who is actually searching for "United Kingdom A1 road"? Here in the U.S., if you're not intimately familiar with the official terminology, it's reasonable to assume you would call a state highway by its state name. The roadways are often branded with state symbology and the common abbreviations (officially and otherwise) are often just the state postal abbreviations. None of this is true in, say, Europe.
Is it really prudent to move heaven and earth and discard almost two decades of precedent for the benefit of two states instead of taking smaller measures to help those two states conform in case readers/searchers are confused? (Like the redirects I mentioned above.) I don't wanna be the "it's always been this way" guy, but I feel like the articles being named this way for nearly the entire history of this project has to matter at least a little. Temporal consistency matters as much as nomenclatural consistency, in my opinion. T C N7JM 14:34, 20 September 2023 (EDT)

I don't think we necessarily shoehorn every state and country into one format. I'm loath to support moving Iowa's articles to Highway 1 (Iowa), etc. when Iowa Highway 1 and Iowa 1 are used almost interchangeably by the DOT. I think consistency among a specific set of articles (read: across one state or country) is more important. That all being said, Iowa Highway 1, State Highway 74 (Oklahoma), New York State Route 17, A1 (Great Britain), and N82 (Ireland) can all coexist without the need to make one group look like all the others. –Fredddie ™ 16:23, 20 September 2023 (EDT)

I think it's useful to consider what each state's DOT or residents call other states' similarly named routes when they need to disambiguate. Since California was given as an example, I'll point out that Caltrans sometimes says "California SR X" and "Arizona SR Y" to distinguish the two states' state route systems. [5] Meanwhile, in Ohio, people say or write either "SR X" short for "State Route X", or "Ohio X" short for "Ohio State Route X" for routes near the state line. A title of "State Route X (Ohio)" wouldn't be terribly surprising, but it doesn't seem like a significant improvement over "Ohio State Route X". I think it's fine if Michigan, Kansas, and Nebraska stick to their catchy monograms with disambiguation as necessary, but that doesn't need to affect the rest of the country. – Minh Nguyễn ^💬 03:05, 26 September 2023 (EDT)

Canada and US territories

Just to touch on it, I would support using this scheme for Canada as well, going with <type> <number> (<province>) and <type> <number> (<territory>) as appropriate for consistency. Further, I'd use that last formulation for the US territories for consistency. Imzadi 1979 → 11:49, 3 July 2023 (EDT)

I agree. It seems like the Quebec–Ontario border is the highway/route border, generally speaking. –Fredddie ™ 16:26, 3 July 2023 (EDT)

I suggest Québec Autoroutes have no disambiguator (unless we plan on adding French Autoroutes). LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 22:34, 5 July 2023 (EDT)

Personally I would suggest future proofing so we don't have to do a bunch of moves later. (That being said, the current enwiki convention in France is Axx road). --Rs chen 7754 14:17, 6 July 2023 (EDT)

Pretty sure the official nomenclature for French Autoroutes is "Autoroute A(X)" anyways, though I could be wrong. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 17:50, 6 July 2023 (EDT)

Poll: SRNC 2.0

I think it's time that this got put to a poll since the discussions seem to be stagnant.

Should a prefix (P1) or a parenthetical disambiguator (P2) be used for disambiguation?

This discussion has been closed and is preserved as an archive of the decision of the community. Please do not modify it!

The articles will remain at P1 due to the majority, however some expressed a willingness to revisit the issue in the future. --Rs chen 7754 20:58, 1 December 2023 (EST)

Example: California, where the official name is State Route X. Should the articles be California State Route 78 (P1) or State Route 78 (California) (P2)? --Rs chen 7754 00:54, 16 November 2023 (EST)

P2. I think this is the best route forward. We've heard Imzadi1979 talk about the benefits of the parens and they make sense to me. –Fredddie ™ 01:32, 16 November 2023 (EST)
P1. In addition to the points I've brought up in the discussion, I'm really quite unsure what's wrong with the status quo to the point that we would actively want to undertake moving almost the entirety of the project. T C (Eli) 01:46, 16 November 2023 (EST)
Neutral I personally prefer P2. However, neither is perfect for all situations and cases. So it's a lot of work to switch from one imperfect scheme to another.Dave (talk) 02:44, 16 November 2023 (EST)
P1 - Although I understand the motives for P2, I find nothing wrong with the status quo that was on Wikipedia for years and we would save ourselves a lot of work keeping the article titles as-is. Dough4872 07:49, 16 November 2023 (EST)
P1 Echoing both my comments above and what Eli said - a change now would be a lot of extra work for the project, especially since we don't have bots to help with things like fixing double redirects. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 10:22, 16 November 2023 (EST)
P1 but willing to revisit after we have more tools that would allow for easier management of such a move. The status quo works and is also beneficial for SEO. Sounder Bruce 15:06, 17 November 2023 (EST)
P2 Ran4sh (talk) 21:27, 17 November 2023 (EST)

When the state is part of the official name, should it be put into parentheses at the end?

This discussion has been closed and is preserved as an archive of the decision of the community. Please do not modify it!

A bit moot given the conclusion above, however the answer is no. --Rs chen 7754 20:57, 1 December 2023 (EST)

This would only apply if the outcome of the above poll is P2.

Example: Iowa, where the official name is Iowa Highway 1 or Iowa 1. Should the articles be named Highway 1 (Iowa)? --Rs chen 7754 00:54, 16 November 2023 (EST)

No. I'm starting to think it should be <place> nn, so for Iowa, it would be Iowa 1. –Fredddie ™ 01:32, 16 November 2023 (EST)
No - The P1/P2 debate was intended for states where the official name is "State Route/Highway/Road 78". Also I agree with Fredddie. As this wiki is limited in scope to highway only. There's no reason why we could have the articles titled "California 78". For our scope it's clear what that means. Obviously in Wikipedia that scheme wouldn't work.Dave (talk)
No Ran4sh (talk) 21:28, 17 November 2023 (EST)
No After thinking it over, I don't think we should force P2 on states where it doesn't work. --Rs chen 7754 22:34, 17 November 2023 (EST)

Proposal summary

Following the format of WP:USSH, this is a summary of the proposals thus far. –Fredddie ™ 20:36, 5 July 2023 (EDT)

~~NB: if someone could spot check the Canadian abbreviations, that would be great. I took a guess at what I thought they were. –Fredddie ™ 02:34, 5 July 2023 (EDT)~~

State/Territory/District	Official name	Article title	Abbreviation
Alabama	State Route X	Alabama State Route X	SR X
Alaska	Alaska Route X	Alaska Route X^[a]	AK-X
American Samoa	American Samoa Highway X	American Samoa Highway X	ASXXXX^[b]
Arizona	State Route X	Arizona State Route X	SR X
Arkansas	Highway X	Arkansas Highway X	AR X
California	State Route X	California State Route X	SR X
Colorado	State Highway X	Colorado State Highway X	SH X
Connecticut	Route X	Connecticut Route X	Route X
County roads	County Road X County Route X	County Road X (Y County, <state>) County Route X (Y County, <state>)	CR X
Delaware	Delaware Route X	Delaware Route X	DE X
District of Columbia	District of Columbia Route X	District of Columbia Route X	DC X
Florida	State Road X	Florida State Road X	SR X
Georgia	State Route X	Georgia State Route X	SR X
Guam	Guam Highway X	Guam Highway X	GH-X
Hawaii	Route X	Hawaii Route X	Route X
Idaho	State Highway X	Idaho State Highway X	SH-X
Illinois	Illinois Route X	Illinois Route X	IL X
Indiana	State Road X	Indiana State Road X	SR X
Iowa	Iowa Highway X	Iowa Highway X	Iowa X
Kansas	K-X	K-X (Kansas)	K-X
Kentucky	Kentucky Route X	Kentucky Route X	KY X
Louisiana	Louisiana Highway X	Louisiana Highway X	LA X
Louisiana parish roads	Parish Road X	Parish Road X (Y Parish, Louisiana)	PR X
Maine	State Route X	Maine State Route X	SR X
Maryland	Maryland Route X	Maryland Route X	MD X
Massachusetts	Route X	Massachusetts Route X	Route X
Michigan	M-X	M-X (Michigan)	M-X
Michigan CDHs and county roads	A-X County Road X	A-2 (Michigan) County Road X (Y County, Michigan)	A-X CR X
Minnesota	Minnesota State Highway X	Minnesota State Highway X	MN X
Minnesota county roads	County State-Aid Highway X County Road X	County State-Aid Highway X (Y County, Minnesota) County Road X (Y County, Minnesota)	CSAH X CR X
Mississippi	Mississippi Highway X	Mississippi Highway X	MS X
Missouri	Route X	Missouri Route X	Route X
Montana	Montana Highway X	Montana Highway X	MT X
Montana (secondary)	Secondary Highway X	Montana Highway X	S-X
Nebraska	Nebraska Highway X	Nebraska Highway X	N-X
Nevada	State Route X	Nevada State Route X	SR X
New Hampshire	New Hampshire Route X	New Hampshire Route X	NH X
New Jersey	Route X	New Jersey Route X	Route X
New Mexico	State Road X	New Mexico State Road X	NM X
New York	New York State Route X	New York State Route X	NY X
North Carolina	NC X	North Carolina Highway X	NC X
North Dakota	North Dakota Highway X	North Dakota Highway X	ND X
Northern Mariana Islands	Northern Mariana Islands Highway X	Northern Mariana Islands Highway X	Hwy. X
Ohio	State Route X	Ohio State Route X	SR X
Oklahoma	State Highway X	Oklahoma State Highway X	SH-X
Oregon	Oregon Route X	Oregon Route X	OR X
Pennsylvania	Pennsylvania Route X	Pennsylvania Route X	PA X
Pennsylvania Quadrant	State Route X	State Route X (Y County, Pennsylvania)	SR X
Puerto Rico	PR-X	Puerto Rico Highway X	PR-X
Rhode Island	Route X	Rhode Island Route X	Route X
South Carolina	South Carolina Highway X	South Carolina Highway X	SC X
South Dakota	Highway X	South Dakota Highway X	SD X
Tennessee	State Route X	Tennessee State Route X	SR X
Texas	State Highway X	Texas State Highway X	SH X
U.S. Virgin Islands	U.S. Virgin Islands Highway X	U.S. Virgin Islands Highway X	Hwy X
Utah	State Route X	Utah State Route X	SR-X
Vermont	Vermont Route X	Vermont Route X	VT X
Virginia	State Route X	Virginia State Route X	SR X
Washington	State Route X	Washington State Route X	SR X
West Virginia	West Virginia Route X	West Virginia Route X	WV X
Wisconsin	State Trunk Highway X	Wisconsin Highway X	WIS X
Wisconsin county roads	County Trunk Highway X	County Trunk Highway X (Y County, Wisconsin)	CTH-X
Wyoming	Wyoming Highway X	Wyoming Highway X	WYO X
Province	Official name	Article title	Abbreviation
Alberta	Highway x	Alberta Highway x	Hwy x
British Columbia	Highway x	British Columbia Highway x	Hwy x
Manitoba	Highway x Provincial Road x	Manitoba Highway x Manitoba Provincial Road x	PTH x PR x
Winnipeg city routes	Route x	Winnipeg Route x	Route x
New Brunswick	Route x	New Brunswick Route x	Route x
Newfoundland and Labrador	Route x	Newfoundland and Labrador Route x	Route x
Northwest Territories	Highway x	Northwest Territories Highway x	Highway x
Nova Scotia	Trunk x (1-2 digit) Highway x (100-series) Route x (200 and up)	Nova Scotia Trunk x Nova Scotia Highway x Nova Scotia Route x	Trunk x Highway x Route x
Nunavut	no numbered routes
Ontario	King's Highway x	Ontario Highway X	Highway x
Ontario county roads	Y <division> Road x	<divisional> Road x (<division> Y, Ontario) ^[c]	<d>R x
Quebec	Route x Autoroute x	Quebec Route x Quebec Autoroute x	Route x A-x
Prince Edward Island	Route x	Prince Edward Island Route x	Route x
Saskatchewan	Highway x	Saskatchewan Highway X	Hwy x
Yukon	Highway x	Yukon Highway X	Hwy x

^ Named highways are at <name of road> Highway.
^ American Samoa uses four-digit numbers, padding them with the necessary zeros.
^ Replace <division> with County, District, Municipal, or Regional as required.

Comments

This looks good to me to start, especially on the article title column. We probably should do a quick survey to make sure that all of the official names are correct, that we don't have assumptions from 2005 repeated again. Per the Guam Dept. of Public Works, it appears that they have Routes, not Highways, and they refer to them as "Route x" in short form. I think that merits an update.

As for the abbreviation column, I'd switch Minnesota to "TH x", and I'd switch Wisconsin to "STH-x". I don't think ArDOT uses "AR x", so that one probably should be switched to "Hwy. x". Then we should look at harmonizing the rest of the column and standardizing spaces vs. hyphens and "Hwy." vs. "Highway" because this is forming part of our AARW style guide and not mimicking the internal style guides of government agencies or the news media. It appears that "SH x" and "SR x" are the more common, so "SH-x" and "SR-x" should be switched for consistency. Highway is abbreviated more than it isn't, so should be abbreviated in those few places it isn't now. As an abbreviated word, it should have a period at the end, while initialisms don't get periods anymore.

Lest someone complain that we aren't following their favorite state DOT's format, when I was transcribing the AASHTO documents, they called everything "S.R. x" for several years, regardless of how the individual departments actually named and abbreviated their highways. Various news sources insert or drop periods and go with spaces or hyphens based on their style guides. We get to set our style guide, and this is part of that. Imzadi 1979 → 00:43, 6 July 2023 (EDT)

In my experience/opinion, public-facing MnDOT sources (and common parlance) dictate that the Minnesota abbreviation should remain "MN". T C N7JM 06:42, 31 August 2023 (EDT)

Minnesota can't seem to decide whether "State-Aid" is hyphenated or not. Feels like it logically should be ("County" and "State-Aid" are both adjectives describing the "Highway") but quite a few official sources at both the state and county level do not use the hyphen. Thoughts? T C N7JM 06:37, 31 August 2023 (EDT)

I would hyphenate it. The general rule is that if you drop either word and the result makes no sense, it's a compound modifier that needs to a hyphen. An "aid highway" doesn't make sense while a "state-aid highway" does. Since this is a matter of styling, we aren't totally beholden to how official sources style it. Imzadi 1979 → 05:41, 12 September 2023 (EDT)

ArDOT does use AR XX, especially on signs like this one, which are common across the state. I think the prose should use "Highway XX", and the abbreviations should be AR XX. Hwy. XX and Ark. XX are seen rarely, but I believe these are being phased out in favor of AR XX. Brandonrush Woo pig sooie! 10:08, 1 October 2023 (EDT)

Just a note regarding Ontario's county-equivalent roads: They all have different nomenclature depending on the type of government. For example, Sudbury has "Municipal Road X (MR-X)", a bunch of places have "Regional Road X (RR-X)", Muskoka is "District Road X (DR-X)". Andrepoiy (talk) 12:51, 3 October 2023 (EDT)

Right. All of the templates reflect the correct nomenclature. This was more just to show the formatting. –Fredddie ™ 15:57, 5 October 2023 (EDT)

I don't know if we need yet another poll to close this all up, but I'm good with this. --Rs chen 7754 16:05, 2 December 2023 (EST)

Specific road hardware and features

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These will be included. I will also point out that many of the articles were imported already anyway. --Rs chen 7754 01:43, 21 December 2023 (EST)

Things like "guardrail", "traffic signal", "flashing yellow arrow", "cable barrier", "rumble strip", interchange types, etc. (Basically anything you might see in a Road Guy Rob video.)

I think these would be feasible if we took a more specific approach than Wikipedia and noted particularly unusual or notable instances of interchange types; which states do and don't have FYAs, etc. Scott5114 (talk) 23:51, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
I think these fall in our scope. Dough4872 21:36, 22 June 2023 (EDT)
I think we can go beyond Wikipedia here. Many of us have civil engineering training, so there could be some road-specific features we could go further with. Tri-chord vs. Cantilever signage for example, or runaway truck lanes. - Floydian (talk) 14:32, 30 September 2023 (EDT)
I have concerns along the lines that Scott mentions - can we do a better job than the Wikipedia article can? --Rs chen 7754 00:20, 1 October 2023 (EDT)
I think these are in scope, and like Scott suggested, we may want to take a different approach to these than Wikipedia does. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 00:24, 25 October 2023 (EDT)

American Samoa

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The numbered highways will be individual articles. --Rs chen 7754 18:52, 1 January 2024 (EST)

Individual articles, I don't think it's good to merge primaries away to a list. --Rs chen 7754 01:59, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
Individual articles for the three numbered highways, but keep the listicle around for unnumbered ones. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 14:19, 1 January 2024 (EST)

Arkansas institutional roads

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The park and airport roads can have their own articles. RCS will be allowed for the other roads. --Rs chen 7754 14:11, 2 January 2024 (EST)

RCS. Perhaps a standalone article for the set of airport roads. V C 18:51, 28 June 2023 (EDT)

A good reference to refer to is [6]. 600 is interesting to me because that's a catch-all for every state park road, yet there is still a mileage to be calculated. It would be interesting to know what roads and what parks 600 comprises - similar for 980 (airport roads). The other 800+ can probably stay as is (table), though RCS could be considered if more information turns up. --Rs chen 7754 16:26, 22 November 2023 (EST)
RCS, but the sets of park roads and airport roads can have their own articles. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 14:23, 1 January 2024 (EST)

Guam

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Individual articles. --Rs chen 7754 18:53, 1 January 2024 (EST)

Individual articles, I don't think it's good to merge primaries away to a list. --Rs chen 7754 01:59, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
Individual articles, which seems to be the status quo. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 14:25, 1 January 2024 (EST)

Illinois county routes

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Routes can be mentioned in a table, and be an article if more notable. --Rs chen 7754 14:13, 2 January 2024 (EST)

Systems article, but no coverage of individual routes unless they are notable. V C 21:01, 28 June 2023 (EDT)

Right now we have four county-level table lists of routes, and a few redirects to articles on individual roads (none of which have been imported yet, leaving the redirects broken). I'm in favor of importing those articles and keeping the existing lists, and wouldn't be opposed to more county-level tables for other counties. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 22:35, 3 September 2023 (EDT)
Table, though considering how spotty the coverage is and how short the roads are, I could be convinced to have no coverage. Notable routes can remain separate articles (which have since been imported). --Rs chen 7754 02:10, 29 November 2023 (EST)

Louisiana

Louisiana B routes (100-185)

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The Louisiana B routes will be in standalone articles. --Rs chen 7754 23:25, 12 December 2023 (EST)

The A routes <100 should always have an article and the mergers already done should be undone. Unsure about the rest. --Rs chen 7754 21:52, 28 June 2023 (EDT)
- Most of the mergers of the B routes should be undone per TC31. --Rs chen 7754 17:32, 22 November 2023 (EST)
With a handful of exceptions, these are pretty substantial highways that should have their own articles (Louisiana Highway 126 is 97 miles long!). I think we can split them back out. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 11:36, 10 November 2023 (EST)

Louisiana C routes (300-1241)

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Listicles will be used for most of these routes. --Rs chen 7754 23:26, 12 December 2023 (EST)

The current RCS lists should be fine for most of these. More notable routes can have their own articles. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 11:37, 10 November 2023 (EST)
Per TC31. --Rs chen 7754 17:33, 22 November 2023 (EST)

Louisiana parish roads

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The RCS signed parish route list will remain, but no other route coverage. --Rs chen 7754 14:15, 2 January 2024 (EST)

Systems article, but no coverage of individual parish roads unless they are notable. The RCS parish route list should be eliminated. V C 21:05, 28 June 2023 (EDT)

I'm fine with keeping the RCS parish route list, since it has well-defined criteria; apparently few parish routes are signed in Louisiana, and the ones listed are. No individual articles though. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 11:39, 10 November 2023 (EST)
Per TC31. --Rs chen 7754 03:24, 16 November 2023 (EST)

Minnesota CSAH and county hwys

Minnesota CSAH

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These will be covered in listicles. --Rs chen 7754 23:28, 12 December 2023 (EST)

Similar to Michigan's CDHs, I'd be naturally incline to support something on CSAHs vs. CRs in the Land of 10,000 Lakes. Imzadi 1979 → 14:30, 20 June 2023 (EDT)

I'd say CSAHs are generally important enough to warrant RCS-style coverage given that they are technically funded in some variable part by the state. There's even a system in place to improve shorter state highways and then turn them back to county jurisdiction and make them CSAHs (this has resulted in quite a few Minnesota State Highways being deleted over the past couple decades). A few CSAHs were notable enough for standalone articles on Wikipedia and there are almost certainly a few more that are notable enough for standalone articles that nobody's gotten around to writing yet. I'll also say that CSAHs make up almost 70% of county highway mileage in the entire state and I'm fairly certain no one will want to write RCS content on most of it. At the very least, we should have tables. T C N7JM 06:14, 31 August 2023 (EDT)
Per TCN7JM. --Rs chen 7754 14:23, 24 November 2023 (EST)

Minnesota county hwys

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These will be covered in tables. --Rs chen 7754 14:16, 2 January 2024 (EST)

No coverage. Perhaps a systems article, but better if the CR and CSAH systems could be explained in the same article. V C 21:06, 28 June 2023 (EDT)

The distinction between CSAH and CR is pretty nebulous in practice, with some counties using the same shield for both designations and others not. All routes are maintained by the county but CSAHs are given some variable amount of state funding to achieve this. It would seem silly to include one but not the other, and sure enough, as I've gone through and bluelinked Minnesota, I've noticed all the previously existing county highway lists include both CSAH and CR. That's about the most coverage I'm willing to say CRs deserve: one routelist row. T C N7JM 06:04, 31 August 2023 (EDT)

Per TCN7JM. --Rs chen 7754 14:23, 24 November 2023 (EST)

Newfoundland - local roads (hyphenated)

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These will be in tables. --Rs chen 7754 14:19, 2 January 2024 (EST)

Table at least, if that. There's tons of them [7] --Rs chen 7754 01:51, 20 June 2023 (EDT)

New York county routes

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There is a time-sensitive nature to this discussion so it is being closed a bit early. The votes come down as 2 being open to RCS and 2 limiting to tables, with 1 (almost) no coverage. My vote also did mention not wanting to get rid of the RCS in Suffolk County. Given all this, listicles of New York county routes will be allowed, and further discussions (at deletion requests if need be) can be had on individual cases. --Rs chen 7754 14:07, 4 January 2024 (EST)

I think tables by-county are the best way to handle these routes. Dough4872 15:30, 22 June 2023 (EDT)
No coverage except for individual county routes that are notable, such as county routes that were formerly state routes like (signed) Onondaga County Route 57. V C 21:25, 23 June 2023 (EDT)
Table, with exceptions possible. What I don't want is something like this [8], a RCS on a bunch of <1 mile routes. --Rs chen 7754 21:31, 23 June 2023 (EDT)
- To add to that, we already have List of county routes in Nassau County, New York (C01–C25) and List of county routes in Nassau County, New York (E51–E68). We also have RCS lists for Suffolk County, though those routes are more substantial and there is no table list. --Rs chen 7754 14:36, 17 November 2023 (EST)
All of the above, though individual articles that are currently active ought to be reviewed on a case-by-case basisBMACS1002 (talk) 15:53, 25 June 2023 (EDT)
Tables or RCS/listicle are fine here, as far as I'm concerned, and I'm not in a hurry to get rid of standalone articles that already exist. Lists like the Nassau County one don't bother me; the whole purpose of this encyclopedia is to have more relaxed rules on road notability, so if someone wants to write a RCS on minor routes in a large urban county, I say go for it. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 16:44, 17 November 2023 (EST)
I don't think we should prescribe either tables or a listicle as a standard for these kinds of routes; if someone wants to do the research to flesh out a listicle more power to them. There certainly isn't much reason to delete or collapse a listicle if one already exists. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 17:15, 17 November 2023 (EST)

Nova Scotia collectors (2xx, 3xx)

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These will remain standalone articles. --Rs chen 7754 14:20, 2 January 2024 (EST)

Standalone. Almost all are >10 miles, longest is 82 miles. Also sets a concerning precedent since if we merged them all away there would only be 25-35 articles left. --Rs chen 7754 01:02, 5 December 2023 (EST)

Pennsylvania quadrant routes

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These will be in tables for 1000-4000, and 6000s.The 8000s and 9000s will be omitted. --Rs chen 7754 14:22, 2 January 2024 (EST)

The assumption is that all the 6000+ are not notable at all.

I think we can do tables by-county for the routes that are in the 1000-4000 number range, maybe could also include the 6000s since they are often former alignments of state and US routes. However, we can do without the 8000s and 9000s since they are basically ramps etc. Dough4872 08:46, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
Per Dough. --Rs chen 7754 23:47, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
No coverage except for notable ones like SR 1002 (Lehigh County), Airport Connector, and President Biden Expressway. V C 22:07, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
Per Dough; this seems like a topic where if someone wants to put in the work to cover it, they can go for it. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 14:27, 1 January 2024 (EST)

Puerto Rico

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Leaving as status quo, with 4 digit routes redirecting to 3 digit parents. --Rs chen 7754 14:26, 2 January 2024 (EST)

Secondary routes

Tertiary routes

Note that routes can be both secondary and tertiary

PR 1 is all four types of routes. –Fredddie ™ 21:56, 20 June 2023 (EDT)

I would suggest leaving at the status quo for now. Going back to my notes, it seems that all 4 digit routes currently redirect to the 3 digit parents (and the number of digits does not necessarily line up with the class). We can revisit at a later point. --Rs chen 7754 20:37, 8 December 2023 (EST)

Saskatchewan

Secondary 200-399

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These will remain standalone. --Rs chen 7754 14:35, 2 January 2024 (EST)

Keep as standalone for now, roads are generally dozens of miles in length according to List of Saskatchewan provincial highways. --Rs chen 7754 15:41, 2 December 2023 (EST)

Municipal routes 600-799

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These will remain RCS. --Rs chen 7754 14:35, 2 January 2024 (EST)

These aren't state highways and Masterhatch just went and merged them all away so I'm leaning towards keeping RCS. --Rs chen 7754 01:52, 20 June 2023 (EDT)

Northern secondary 9xx

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These will remain standalone. --Rs chen 7754 14:36, 2 January 2024 (EST)

Keep as standalone for now, dozens of miles in length. Many are unpaved, but this is northern Canada. --Rs chen 7754 15:42, 2 December 2023 (EST)

Tennessee secondary

Routes can be both primary and secondary

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Secondary routes will remain standalone articles. --Rs chen 7754 14:32, 2 January 2024 (EST)

All routes with at least one nonconcurrent primary section should have standalone articles. Routes that are entirely secondary should be RCS. Unsigned routes that run entirely with a U.S. Highway redirect to that U.S. Highway. V C 22:15, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
It looks like most of the secondary-only Tennessee routes have standalone articles, and I think they should stay that way. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 00:47, 25 October 2023 (EDT)
Some of these secondary routes are 50+ miles. I don't think any mass merging should take place. --Rs chen 7754 23:26, 20 November 2023 (EST)

USVI 3dis

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These will remain listicles combined with parent routes. --Rs chen 7754 14:33, 2 January 2024 (EST)

Most were merged away already to the parent routes. Leave as is in most cases since they were generally 1 mile or less. --Rs chen 7754 01:40, 8 December 2023 (EST)

Virginia secondary

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These will be in tables, with reasonable limits in scenarios like Fairfax. --Rs chen 7754 14:32, 2 January 2024 (EST)

Capstone article. Otherwise, no coverage, unless one is notable. V C 22:17, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

I think we can do tables by-county for these routes but limit which routes are included based on a number range or functional classification, since some counties have a large number of routes that consist of every residential street. Dough4872 15:30, 22 June 2023 (EDT)
Because we are a road wiki now, table. Open to discussion on parameters. --Rs chen 7754 20:27, 28 June 2023 (EDT)
- Would support including every route in a table, since this is a road wiki. --Rs chen 7754 19:47, 19 November 2023 (EST)
  - I don’t know if this would work for some counties like Fairfax County where there are thousands of secondary state routes since every residential street is considered a route. As I mentioned above we may need to draw a line somewhere. Dough4872 20:16, 19 November 2023 (EST)
    - Yeah, in that case I wouldn't support including every route. --Rs chen 7754 20:46, 19 November 2023 (EST)
Tables like the ones we have for the 600-700 routes seem fine to me; tables by county are also fine, provided we have some sort of limit on counties like Fairfax that make everything a county route. (Both formats run into some inevitable problems; county tables split up the routes that keep the same number across several counties, while tables by number break down for higher numbers.) Either way, tables are the way to go. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 23:37, 19 November 2023 (EST)

West Virginia county routes

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The raw count is 4-2 for creating tables. There are 3 votes for only including whole numbers and 1 that did not specify. Thus, whole-number county routes can be included in tables. --Rs chen 7754 00:22, 3 January 2024 (EST)

Capstone article. Otherwise, no coverage, unless one is notable. V C 22:16, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

I'm open to tables of the whole-number county routes, but not fractional routes or anything else, since West Virginia makes almost everything some sort of numbered route. Even the whole-number routes are a pretty low priority though. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 23:39, 19 November 2023 (EST)
I think we can do tables by-county for selected routes, but we need to make a cutoff somewhere since there are so many routes. I think limiting it to whole-number routes like TheCatalyst31 suggested is a good idea. Dough4872 23:33, 20 November 2023 (EST)
Per TC31. --Rs chen 7754 00:09, 21 November 2023 (EST)
I think VC originally had the right idea. The WV county road system itself is complex, but after pulling up a county map, I don't think I could support including any routes. –Fredddie ™ 00:55, 21 November 2023 (EST)
Capstone article is fine, but if someone actually wants to put the effort into making tables I don't think we should tell them they can't. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 15:44, 8 December 2023 (EST)

Locked out of my account

Hey all, I used to be a regular USRD editor, but I sort of drifted away long before Wikipedia coordinated an assault on the project. I created an account on AARoads Wiki (Username: Needforspeed888), but my computer did not save my randomly generated password, and since I forget to add my email address, there appeared to be no way I could reset my password. Is there a way I could regain access to my account? Thanks Needforspeed888 (temporary account) (talk) 14:04, 5 December 2023 (EST)

There is, but you would need to communicate with us by email (or Discord) somehow. Or, we could rename the old account and then rename your new account, but we would need to install the right extension. --Rs chen 7754 14:14, 5 December 2023 (EST)

If you could link my email address to my regular account, that would be great. Needforspeed888 (temporary account) (talk) 14:21, 4 January 2024 (EST)

I am not sure that this will be possible. I would suggest that we rename your old account to something else and that you keep this account (which we would rename to Needforspeed888). Is that okay? --Rs chen 7754 14:29, 4 January 2024 (EST)

That works too. Needforspeed888 (temporary account) (talk) 11:15, 6 January 2024 (EST)

Okay, sounds good. I'm about to step away for several hours but I'll work on it today and drop an email when done. --Rs chen 7754 11:43, 6 January 2024 (EST)

I’m in business. Thank you so much! Needforspeed888 (talk) 18:56, 6 January 2024 (EST)

Florida 4 digit routes

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Except for 9336, these will be in a table. --Rs chen 7754 02:35, 20 January 2024 (EST)

Do these refer to state highways or county highways? FL 9336 gets a standalone article, the others maybe not. V C 18:57, 28 June 2023 (EDT)
- Except for 9336, all unsigned state highways. --Rs chen 7754 21:48, 28 June 2023 (EDT)
Table, except for 9336. I will note that 5054 does currently have an article [9]. --Rs chen 7754 21:48, 28 June 2023 (EDT)

Hawaii

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These will primarily be in listicles. --Rs chen 7754 02:39, 20 January 2024 (EST)

Hawaii 3 digit routes

I don't know what percentage of 3-digit highways are notable, so I don't know whether table, RCS, or standalone articles is the way to go. We could feasibly do, for example, a List of state highways on Oahu where we have coverage of all highways. Within those island-based articles, we could do RCS (with hatnotes to standalone articles for every entry) for the 2-digit highways, RCS (with limited hatnotes) for 3-digit highways, and tables for 4-digit highways. V C 19:03, 28 June 2023 (EDT)
- Our article says Three-digit routes are typically secondary arterials or collectors, while four-digit routes are typically collectors and minor roads. Because HI is similar to WA in 4ds/3ds being related to 2ds, most of these were merged away to parent articles on enwiki. --Rs chen 7754 21:50, 28 June 2023 (EDT)
RCS (without prejudice to more notable roads), about half of the 3 digits are county and most are short. --Rs chen 7754 22:02, 1 December 2023 (EST)

Hawaii 4 digit routes

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4 digit routes will be in tables. --Rs chen 7754 23:24, 12 December 2023 (EST)

Table unless they are notable. V C 19:00, 28 June 2023 (EDT)
Table, [10] (admittedly not a comprehensive list) seems to indicate that 90%+ are actually county routes. --Rs chen 7754 21:59, 1 December 2023 (EST)

PEI secondary routes (3dpei)

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The result of the discussion was that three-digit routes shall be in listicle (RCS) format. –Fredddie ™

Table. V C 21:28, 28 June 2023 (EDT)
I wanted to wait for someone else to comment to not prejudice the discussion, but looking around Google Maps it seems that every other road is a secondary route or higher. I'm inclined to RCS or table. --Rs chen 7754 21:35, 28 June 2023 (EDT)
- I think RCS would be more appropriate rather than mass redirecting away dozens of articles. --Rs chen 7754 03:23, 16 November 2023 (EST)
- NE2 seems to agree: AARoads:Prince Edward Island/Notes on numbering and notability --Rs chen 7754 22:09, 5 December 2023 (EST)

Closing: There has been zero movement outside of Rschen's comments, which I'm going to understand as a tacit approval. –Fredddie ™ 02:29, 14 January 2024 (EST)

British Columbia pseudo routes and unofficial highways

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Counting SounderBruce's vote as neutral, the unofficial highways will go to RCS, the pseudo routes will be table. --Rs chen 7754 19:09, 3 February 2024 (EST)

The unofficial highways can go to RCS, the pseudo routes are too minor and should be table. --Rs chen 7754 01:50, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
Don't think we need to scrape the bottom of the barrel with these. Neutral on whether to include them in route tables at all. Sounder Bruce 02:02, 20 June 2023 (EDT)

New Mexico

New Mexico frontage roads

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At 2 votes for nothing and 1 vote for "something", there will not be coverage beyond a system article. --Rs chen 7754 19:11, 3 February 2024 (EST)

[11] is the current article. RCS, maybe even lower. --Rs chen 7754 21:54, 28 June 2023 (EDT)
- Seeing the entire list [12], nothing. --Rs chen 7754 00:23, 29 June 2023 (EDT)
Limit the scope of the current article to the system in general, and maybe keep the signed routes in as a listicle. Nothing on the unsigned routes. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 23:52, 19 November 2023 (EST)
- What isn't clear to me is whether all entries in the current article are signed. --Rs chen 7754 14:26, 28 November 2023 (EST)
The idea of a frontage road system is more interesting to me than the actual routes, so I wouldn't even have a routelist table. –Fredddie ™ 17:08, 2 January 2024 (EST)

New Mexico FL routes

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System article only. --Rs chen 7754 23:27, 12 December 2023 (EST)

Nothing - [13] is beyond our scope. --Rs chen 7754 00:23, 29 June 2023 (EDT)
I'd be fine with a system article if a New Mexico expert knows more about these, but nothing else. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 23:55, 19 November 2023 (EST)

Categorisation of lists

Category:Lists of roads in the United States currently has 27 states covered by 'Lists of roads in' subcategories and a few national 'Lists of <type of roads>' subcategories. Some states just have a single page that is in the category, but about twenty states and couple of types of roads are not present here.

Especially because it is a major way of navigating through the wiki (and we'd like it to be - cf AARoads:Deletion requests#Canadian navboxes), we ought to be consistent and thorough in how things are categorised. I started work on that, only to have some of my work reverted. My question is simply "Is this how we want to categorise lists? and if not, what?" so I don't waste my time trying to improve categorisation consistency and coverage only for it to be reverted. Si404 (talk) 04:56, 16 October 2023 (EDT)

I don't fully understand your concern. It would help if you listed some specifics, or explained the vision you have for what a fully fleshed out category tree would look like. What I would say in general is Wikipedia had a lot of navigation boxes and the like that in my opinion were redundant to, or better handled by, categories. It almost seemed like some editors created navboxes because they didn't know categories existed. I in general support the idea of more categories, less navboxes. Specific to what I've seen from the articles on my watch list you've edited is creating categories for things like lists of scenic byways. I also support this. However, I do see a some potential problems. One specifically is the states aren't consistent in how they handle scenic byways. Some states have separate systems for scenic highways, verses historical highways or other highways that are worthy of an elevated status for other reasons. Other states just lump all of those "highways we think are cooler than most" into a single "gold star on the forehead" list regardless of the reason this highway is "cooler than most". Then there's California which has the bizarre distinction of two lists, a larger list of highways that are "eligible to be a scenic highway" and "highways declared to be a scenic highway". I'm sure there's a reason for this, but I've never seen an explanation sufficient to make me stop scratching my head as to why someone would say, "this highway is pretty, it's definitely eligible to be a scenic highway, but let's not officially call it one." Utah also has a quirk, but it has not affected Wikipedia (but may someday affect us). Utah has an official list of scenic byways, and an official list of scenic backways. The difference being a backway is not necessarily a state maintained road. Most are dirt or gravel roads, and therefore are almost never sufficiently notable to have a Wikipedia article. However, maybe just being on that list is enough to justify an article now that we make the rules. ;) Point being, we may want a discussion of how to handle this. If consistency is king, we may have to invent a new term instead of "scenic byways", to handle the states that use the same system to distinguish highways for multiple reasons, like "state featured routes" or something. Alternatively we could accept that consistency is impossible if we use the state criteria and just use the terms as used by the states. That would likely mean having multiple sets of categories for similar reasons. Dave (talk) 11:11, 16 October 2023 (EDT)

Hi Dave - I guess lists ought to be (and to a large extent are already - I'm not reinventing the wheel here, just seeking to apply what is already there across more articles) sorted by type (ie Interstate, US, State, 'Scenic', etc) and by state. Most lists are in the format <type> in <state> (though maybe not named that) and so they'd go in two categories - [[Category:Lists of <type>]] and [[Category:Lists of roads in <state>]]. However, I wouldn't be opposed to [[:Category:<type>]] and [[:Category:<state>]] if stuff could be easily found rather than those being massive categories with hundreds of pages.

I agree that 'Scenic Byways' is perhaps not inclusive of everything listed on the lists. However the Template:Scenic Byways, it's header "Scenic highway systems in the United States" (which matches the category that some of these pages are in Category:Scenic highways in the United States), the page clicking that links to "Scenic byways in the United States", and that every state page's name uses the name 'scenic' or 'byway', with most using both meant that it was the obvious choice. I'm rather surprised it was a controversial choice - not least as it was imported from that hive of pedants called Wikipedia! However, the term 'Scenic Byways' is not anything I'm particularly bothered with (and I'm completely and utterly unconcerned by different states having different criteria - they do for every type of road) - it's whether we are happy with the most common categorisation of lists, or whether I am wasting my time trying to improve the wiki by rolling that categorisation out, because we want to go with something else. Si404 (talk) 13:59, 16 October 2023 (EDT)

Is there a state that is categorized "correctly"? Maybe I can see it better. Sometimes you need a picture. –Fredddie ™ 15:03, 16 October 2023 (EDT)

Most of them are mostly categorized "correctly". I don't think any states are fully categorised "correctly" - because there is no "correctly" - that's the purpose of this discussion!

I'll give a worked example using something that is categorised well (but perhaps not "correctly" when we actually work out what that means): List of Interstate Highways in Connecticut is in Category:Lists of Interstate Highways and Category:Connecticut - it's sorted by both type and state, as all such lists should be (but many aren't). Should it be directly in Category:Interstate Highway System instead, or should there be a Category:Lists of Highways in Connecticut subcategory within the state category, or is a subcategory for the type and straight in for the state the way to go? Personally, I'm leaning towards the latter of those three options (see below for reasoning). Si404 (talk) 07:41, 21 October 2023 (EDT)

I don't see a need for a subcategory just for lists on a topic; they can just be in the parent category on the topic. We run the risk of making the category structure too complicated. Imzadi 1979 → 01:28, 21 October 2023 (EDT)

Hi, Imzadi1979 - glad you've responded

I agree that we shouldn't make the category structure too complex, however the biggest complicating factor at the moment is that lists (and generally, other stuff, but I started with the lists) are inconsistently categorised, making them hard to find, not that lists are in separate sub-categories rather than in the parent.

I would agree with you that the parent category is the better place for such lists, except that overly-large categories make navigation too complicated as you have to filter out a lot of stuff you don't want to find the stuff you do. Hence why Category:Interstate Highway System contains several container categories like Category:Interstate Highways by state containing subcategories (and I notice, rolling my eyes, that DC and PR's similar categories aren't in - no doubt due to petty pedanticism about 'state' that needlessly overcomplicates things) to tidy up the main category by boxing up 50 items in something clearly labelled. Having 52 pages that list Interstates by state in this top category would make the category rather cumbersome. Putting stuff in subcategories that are clearly labelled is not necessarily making things more complicated, but rather making things simpler. Especially for the end user.

On the other hand, states have far fewer lists than national categories would have and so the parent category Category:South Carolina (example given because it is one that is full of subcategories that ought to, if we're keeping them, ought to be in a container category to tidy things up). It also helps that the state categories don't have many pages in because the roads are subcategorised by type and don't clog up the parent category, so the lists sit fairly happily there (compare with Category:California, where they are in a subcategory that's currently somewhat lost due to the county categories not being tidied away into a container category and instead clogging things up).

I don't really care *how* the lists are categorised - there's good arguments both ways. I just want to make sure they *are* categorised to make using this wiki easier. Si404 (talk) 07:24, 21 October 2023 (EDT)

Could you sketch up a flowchart or tree diagram to show how the category tree should look? I don't see the problem with category California. California is big state, lots of roads. It will naturally be more chaotic than category Rhode Island regardless of what we do. Maybe if I saw that tree diagram I could visualize the problem better. However, one area where I do see a deficiency with our current category tree is there is no way for a user to browse from a scenic highway in California to a scenic highway in Michigan using categories. Currently the only way to do that is via this navbox at the bottom of the state system pages. However, I see an easy fix. We just create a new category called something like "scenic or historic highway systems in the United states" and tag pages like Utah Scenic Byways with that category. Is that what you had in mind? Dave (talk) 21:15, 21 October 2023 (EDT)

I won't make a flowchart or tree diagram, because that would over-complicate what is really something simple:

A 'list of <type of highway> in <state>' article (eg List of Interstate Highways in Connecticut needs to be in two categories to allow for navigation around the site:

one covering other lists of that type of highway (eg Interstate Highways).
one covering other lists of highways in that state (eg Connecticut).

These categories can be a subcategory eg Category:Lists of Interstate Highways, or directly in the parent category eg Category:Connecticut - and the question at hand is which one of these is the better placement for such pages. Si404 (talk) 14:42, 22 October 2023 (EDT)

That sounds reasonable, unless it created redundant categories. So just to be clear the categories you want to create are:

Category:Lists of Interstate Highways
- which arguably is redundant to Category:Interstate Highways by state
Category:Lists of U.S. Highways
Category:Lists of State Routes
Category:Lists of Scenic highways systems (probably Scenic/Historic is a better title, as again some states have separate lists, others have one list for both purposes)

Anything else? (feel free to strike or add items to this list as appropriate, I don't mind)Dave (talk) 22:21, 22 October 2023 (EDT)

Basically that's it. Though it might be "state highways" if that's the more common term than 'state routes' - you aren't going to get anything but a generic that fits many perfectly and some not-quite-so-well but well enough if you aren't a Vogon (some states call them routes rather than highways; PR, etc aren't states - though the random page I went to calls the PR-578 a 'state highway' nonetheless - because that's the generic type and the technicality that PR isn't a state doesn't change that generic type). And it would be "scenic byways" (the phrase that survived wikipedia's pedant army) or words to that effect, with historic as a separate thing if required (and some pages in two type categories if necessary). I think US Highway lists are currently all in Category:U.S. Highways, so they perhaps are OK there - I've not yet checked. Category:Interstate Highways by state is a container category for [[Category:Interstate Highways in <state>]] Si404 (talk) 14:01, 24 October 2023 (EDT)

The problem with California (having this as a new paragraph as this is a related issue) is that subcategories are hard to find due to a flood of counties categories filling the category up. This would also be the case with every state with lots of county categories directly in the parent category, rather than in a container category keeping them tidy. I would also suggest that roads pages would need to continue to be kept tidy in subcategories (there's no roads directly in Category:California and that's pretty much the same nationwide) - precisely because there is a lot of them. Si404 (talk) 14:51, 22 October 2023 (EDT)

Naming convention addendum

How should we handle double disambiguators? On Special:DoubleRedirects there are a number of Kansas and Michigan pages listed that have names and years, currently using (year1–year2 state) as the disambiguator. Granted, these are redirects, but I believe there are a few articles out there. I don't necessarily have a preference, but I'd like to get something hashed out. –Fredddie ™ 00:51, 15 December 2023 (EST)

I think we can title those as “Route (state, year1–year2)” for those double disambiguators. Dough4872 11:21, 6 January 2024 (EST)

Historic Byways

This is a call that we only have a few days to get the January Historic Byways completed. For that matter, we should just knock out the other months. Template:Main Page/Historic byways –Fredddie ™ 20:22, 26 December 2023 (EST)

Manitoba

Manitoba secondary routes

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These will be left as standalone. --Rs chen 7754 00:20, 5 January 2024 (EST)

RCS. The notable ones or ones with a lot of information can be standalone articles. V C 22:02, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

Leave as standalone, most are dozens of miles in length and a spotcheck of some earlier this year turned up articles that would have met GNG on Wikipedia. Can be revisited if it doesn't work out. --Rs chen 7754 16:39, 2 December 2023 (EST)
Leave as standalone per Rschen7754. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 00:02, 3 January 2024 (EST)

Manitoba: Winnipeg city routes

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The default will be RCS, however more notable ones can remain standalone (to be hashed out in individual discussions). --Rs chen 7754 01:17, 17 February 2024 (EST)

RCS. The only one that clearly should remain a standalone article is Winnipeg Route 90, which is part of Canada's National Highway System. City routes that are wholly or mostly concurrent with a provincial highway should redirect to the provincial highway article. V C 21:50, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

The ones labeled limited access on List of Winnipeg City Routes, or that have limited access portions like Route 42, should remain standalone. For the rest, I think they should go down to listicles - I will point out that a good 1/3 of the RJLs are nonnotable junctions. VC's disclaimer about concurrency should be considered when deciding what to leave standalone. --Rs chen 7754 16:47, 2 December 2023 (EST)

New Brunswick collector routes (>199)

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These will be tables, with standalone articles possible for notable ones. --Rs chen 7754 01:19, 17 February 2024 (EST)

Table, with standalone articles for notable routes. We might also consider RCS for the 100s, with standalone articles for notable ones. V C 21:21, 28 June 2023 (EDT)
I don't support RCS for the 100s as that would leave us with possibly only 12 standalone articles. Eyeballing Google Maps I'm inclined to leave the 200s+ as they are now, though I will admit that comparisons could be made to the Texas FMs. Most are ~10 miles long. There are no known newspaper archives from the modern era, which doesn't help. --Rs chen 7754 22:08, 4 December 2023 (EST)
- Not sure I want to go all the way down to table, but given the comments below I think standalone is excessive, so listicle. --Rs chen 7754 19:07, 3 February 2024 (EST)
Table, with notable ones getting standalone articles. Some of them are unsigned, like New Brunswick Route 270, and I don't think they should be standalone. Hell, the example I mentioned doesn't even have an article. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 19:05, 3 February 2024 (EST)

Incidents

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Incidents will not be covered. --Rs chen 7754 02:33, 20 January 2024 (EST)

Incidents (for example, crashes - like 1999 Ontario Highway 401 crash).

Not in scope. --Rs chen 7754 01:30, 31 December 2023 (EST)
I'd think these would just be discussed on the relevant route or system pages as necessary. T C (Eli) 01:33, 31 December 2023 (EST)
Out of scope, not germane to the purposes of a gazetteer. (Particularly notable incidents should of course be mentioned in the road's history section.) —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 01:44, 31 December 2023 (EST)
I'd agree that they're out of scope for us. It may be worth importing WP:CARCRASH (that I wrote) as official guideline. –Fredddie ™ 02:26, 31 December 2023 (EST)
I would say dedicated articles for them are outside our scope, but we can still include a brief mention in the history section of a road article with a link to the Wikipedia article. Dough4872 10:02, 31 December 2023 (EST)
Incidents and particularly dangerous stretches of road can be discussed in highway articles, but incident articles are usually as much about things like weather and driving behavior as anything that would be in our scope. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 14:11, 31 December 2023 (EST)

Special checking stations

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Low participation but there were no objections. --Rs chen 7754 01:28, 17 February 2024 (EST)

For example: w:California Border Protection Stations, w:United States Border Patrol interior checkpoints. --Rs chen 7754 02:06, 31 January 2024 (EST)

I think we can cover these articles on our wiki, much like we cover rest areas and weigh stations. Dough4872 09:02, 31 January 2024 (EST)

Project and Structure pages

What project pages will we need over time? We have a placeholder Main Page that will be expanded at some point to be all pretty and shiny. We have this discussion page that will get a fancy new name. Imzadi 1979 → 15:04, 19 June 2023 (EDT)

Imagine merging the roads projects on enwp, and then turning that merged project into the whole wiki. This page would be WT:HWY/WT:USRD/Village Pump/etc. We'd need some analogs to the project departments with their appropriate subpages, and while it's not a favorite, but we'd need some sort of MOS, even if we kept it lightweight. This can be merged with the standards pages into a simplified Standards manual. So:

AARoads:Assessment (along with some sort of review forums)
AARoads:Maps
AARoads:Markers or AARoads:Graphics more generally?
AARoads:Resources
AARoads:Newsletter (I mentioned publishing a new issue of The Center Line jointly on enwp and AARW to announce the fork.)
AARoads:Standards

What policy pages will we need beyond a basic blocking policy? Deletion policy, of course. Some admin discussion forum? Other pages? Imzadi 1979 → 15:44, 19 June 2023 (EDT)

We would have to work through this slowly, but civility/behavioral, sourcing, alternative accounts, bots, user rights come to mind. --Rs chen 7754 19:27, 19 June 2023 (EDT)

So:

Although, we might be able to combine a few topics. The civility policy could cover the use of alternate accounts and socking as a general behavioral practice, or alternate accounts and bots could go together. Sourcing/citations could even be covered as part of the Standards manual. I should have mentioned with my previous list, but a Graphics Department could handle Maps too. Imzadi 1979 → 14:45, 20 June 2023 (EDT)

We forgot the all-important and most controversial topic: naming conventions. --Rs chen 7754 00:07, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

Yes, once we have an editor base can we have a redo of the SNRC poll? A fresh start means a fresh start. IMHO the one used to decide Wikipedia naming conventions got it wrong. So if we're ever going to re-address it, now is that time.Moabdave (talk) 14:46, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

Article naming is a part of Standards. Hat tip to Scott5114 for the idea of a Manual on Uniform Road Articles (MURA). MURA would have subdivisions for Scope, Article titles, Article structure, Basic style/formatting, RJL and routelist tables, Sourcing/citations. Basically a one-stop reference for someone creating a new article. Imzadi 1979 → 23:19, 21 June 2023 (EDT)

Policy page

I started a draft policy page at User:Fredddie/Policies where I borrowed heavily from enwiki's WP:LOP. I was intending that everything be loose and flexible. When we iron out the scope and have SRNC2, I'd like to link to those pages. –Fredddie ™ 00:44, 22 June 2023 (EDT)

For speedy deletions I would also include uncontroversial maintenance, maybe clearly out of scope pages (i.e. pages on Pokemon). As far as overall, while I think there will be a lot more detail eventually on some policies (especially content), I think this is a good interim document that summarizes our expectations. --Rs chen 7754 14:09, 22 June 2023 (EDT)

Individual Page Proposals

Below are all the project page proposals that have been put forward thus far. The spaces below have been set out to vote on whether the sections are needed, and if it should be a department, initial volunteers to get the department started, and nominations for who should be the port of call of that department (that is, department heads). BMACS 1002 21:05, 5 November 2023 (EST)

AARoads:Assessment

Discussion moved to #Specific assessment guidelines so is with a related discussion. Dave (talk) 13:10, 3 December 2023 (EST)

AARoads:Maps

This one seems to already be up and running, but I invite people to sign on under the Participants header. I'd nominate either myself or User:Mxn as head of the department. BMACS 1002 21:05, 5 November 2023 (EST)

AARoads:Markers or AARoads:Graphics

Same as AARoads:Shields. --Rs chen 7754 16:03, 2 December 2023 (EST)

AARoads:Resources

Same as AARoads:The Library. --Rs chen 7754 16:03, 2 December 2023 (EST)

AARoads:Newsletter

Another no-brainer, in my opinion; I mainly include this to get the ball rolling on fleshing out the task force. BMACS 1002 21:05, 5 November 2023 (EST)

This is one scenario where the coordinator or editor-in-chief position should exist. --Rs chen 7754 01:47, 10 November 2023 (EST)

AARoads:Standards

I believe User:Imzadi1979 is still working on a standards document/Manual of Style for us. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 00:09, 6 November 2023 (EST)

AARoads:Alternate accounts

I have redirected this to the relevant section of the conduct policy. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 00:09, 6 November 2023 (EST)

AARoads:Blocking

This will probably redirect to the relevant section of the administration policy, when it is written. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 00:09, 6 November 2023 (EST)

This policy, or the relevant section of the administration policy if we go that route, should be a priority since it's the only red link in the welcome template. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 11:58, 6 November 2023 (EST)

AARoads:Bots

I have redirected this to the relevant section of the conduct policy. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 00:09, 6 November 2023 (EST)

AARoads:Civility

I have redirected this to the relevant section of the conduct policy. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 00:09, 6 November 2023 (EST)

AARoads:Deletion

I'm not really sure we need a "deletion policy". We have a scope section of the content policy, and at some point we'll probably want to codify what's ok to speedy delete, but do we really need much else? This could maybe redirect to AARoads:Deletion requests. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 00:09, 6 November 2023 (EST)

Should explain how the process works, do we want 5 days? 7? 14? Until there is consensus? And what that is - is 50% enough? (especially if there are Delete/Merge/Redirect votes) --Rs chen 7754 00:34, 6 November 2023 (EST)

I've been assuming 14 days is a good enough time for anything. And yes, a simple majority for any one option should be sufficient for that option to carry—perhaps if no option gets a majority, it gets relisted in the form of an approval vote? —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 16:23, 7 November 2023 (EST)

If this is what we want to go with, which I think is reasonable and agree with, I think we should add it in a box at the top of AARoads:Deletion requests and redirect AARoads:Deletion there. Dough4872 19:59, 19 November 2023 (EST)

Can admins close discussions that they have voted in? --Rs chen 7754 19:39, 22 November 2023 (EST)

Poll: Deletion

Going to get this poll going so we can clear up expectations. --Rs chen 7754 20:54, 27 November 2023 (EST)

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Discussions will last 14 days. --Rs chen 7754 14:15, 12 December 2023 (EST)

How long should discussions last?

14 days, this is a smaller wiki and we want to encourage participation. --Rs chen 7754 20:55, 27 November 2023 (EST)
Minimum 14 days, but if someone votes at 11:59, there should be a 48-hour extension after the last comment to allow for more discussion. This I think would dissuade sniping–Fredddie ™ 21:13, 27 November 2023 (EST)
14 days should be sufficient. Dough4872 21:19, 27 November 2023 (EST)
14 days seems to be the standard on this wiki. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 01:37, 28 November 2023 (EST)
14 days sounds good to me - there's no rush if we're having a discussion about it. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 11:36, 28 November 2023 (EST)

This discussion has been closed and is preserved as an archive of the decision of the community. Please do not modify it!

It shall be permissible to close discussions with very clear consensus after seven days, but SNOW closes shall not be done unilaterally and seven-day closes should be rare. The wide majority of discussions should probably use the full 14 days. T C (Eli) 05:05, 16 December 2023 (EST)

Is it permissible to close discussions with very clear consensus after 7 days?

Yes, we're not all about bureaucracy. --Rs chen 7754 20:55, 27 November 2023 (EST)
Yes, but someone should ask for a SNOW close, it should not be done unilaterally. –Fredddie ™ 21:13, 27 November 2023 (EST)
Yes - Only if there is unanimous consent for one option, even if one person goes against the majority then it needs to be 14 days. Dough4872 21:19, 27 November 2023 (EST)
Eh, I'm not really sure what the harm is in letting a discussion run the full two weeks, even if it's apparently obvious how the vote is going to go.. We've all seen the discussions where it looks like it's gonna turn into a pile-on, but new information comes to light partway through, and the tide turns. I'm not entirely opposed to having it as an option, however. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 01:37, 28 November 2023 (EST)
Yes, with the caveat Fredddie added. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 11:36, 28 November 2023 (EST)

This discussion has been closed and is preserved as an archive of the decision of the community. Please do not modify it!

Admins can close discussions they have voted in, though caution is advised in contentious cases. --Rs chen 7754 14:15, 12 December 2023 (EST)

Can admins close discussions that they have voted in?

Yes, although I would caution admins to be careful in contentious cases. --Rs chen 7754 20:55, 27 November 2023 (EST)
Yes per Rschen. –Fredddie ™ 21:13, 27 November 2023 (EST)
Yes - agree with what Rschen said here. Dough4872 21:19, 27 November 2023 (EST)
Yes, closing a discussion should be no more than a procedural vote-counting exercise, so there is no reason to restrict the closer from participating. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 01:37, 28 November 2023 (EST)
Yes per Rschen. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 11:36, 28 November 2023 (EST)

This discussion has been closed and is preserved as an archive of the decision of the community. Please do not modify it!

Should no option earn an absolute majority, the discussion shall be relisted in the form of an approval poll of all options that received at least one vote in the discussion. The option with a plurality of votes in the approval poll after 14 days shall prevail. Should no option earn a plurality of votes in the approval poll, the discussion shall be closed as "no consensus", which defaults to the page being kept. T C (Eli) 02:57, 31 December 2023 (EST)

If no option (redirect/merge/delete etc.) gets an absolute majority, should the discussion be relisted?

Yes eliminating the outlier options. --Rs chen 7754 20:55, 27 November 2023 (EST)
- Per Scott, although I have expressed concerns regarding banning comments in approval polls. --Rs chen 7754 20:09, 12 December 2023 (EST)
Yes, but only once. That way we don't have an endless relistings. What I'm thinking is that if a proposal fails, it should be reworded and tried again. –Fredddie ™ 21:13, 27 November 2023 (EST)
Yes - I think we can relist for another 14 days to see if an option gets a majority, if not then the discussion should default to keep. Dough4872 21:19, 27 November 2023 (EST)
It should be relisted in the form of an approval poll of all options with votes at the previous discussion. Whichever option has a plurality in the approval poll should govern. —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 21:40, 27 November 2023 (EST)
- What if the approval poll is tied? –Fredddie™ 16:21, 2 December 2023 (EST)
  - I suppose at that point we would do a runoff between the tied options (if there are fewer of them than the number of options presented), just close as no consensus/status quo (if all of the options listed are tied), or pay out at 8 to 1 (if the discussion is found to actually be a baccarat table). —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 21:31, 19 December 2023 (EST) —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 21:31, 19 December 2023 (EST)
Seconding Scott's proposal. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 11:36, 28 November 2023 (EST)

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Administrators shall be allowed to delete the following in all cases without a listed discussion: spam, vandalism, blatant hoaxes, attack pages, test pages, clear copyright violations, reposting of previously deleted material, and pages that are obviously not related to roads. Administrators shall also be allowed to perform routine maintenance deletions (such as unused template subpages, orphaned talk pages, or duplicate articles) without a listed discussion. Finally, administrators shall be allowed to delete any user's userpage without a listed discussion should that user request it. T C (Eli) 02:40, 31 December 2023 (EST)

Can the following cases be speedy deleted by an administrator without a discussion? (If you object to any, please say so). Spam, vandalism/attack pages, pages clearly out of scope, maintenance actions (i.e. unused template subpages or orphaned talk pages), userpages upon author request, clear copyright violations, reposting of deleted material.

Yes. --Rs chen 7754 20:55, 27 November 2023 (EST)
Yes. –Fredddie ™ 21:13, 27 November 2023 (EST)
Yes. - We should also make clear what cases we can use speedy deletion on the Deletion page. Dough4872 21:19, 27 November 2023 (EST)
Yes, although rather than "pages clearly out of scope" I would prefer to be more specific and say "pages not related to roads" or something like that, so as to kind of define how clear it needs to be (obviously a page about a certain type of salami sandwich eaten only in North Platte, Nebraska should be speedy-worthy, but if it looks even passingly road-related we should probably have a delreq for it just so we know we're not accidentally deleting an unsigned SR or a local freeway that isn't named like a freeway or something like that). —Scott5114↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 21:45, 27 November 2023 (EST)
- That is generally what is meant - stuff that is unambiguously out of scope, or written in a language other than English. --Rs chen 7754 01:18, 28 November 2023 (EST)
  - That's the thing, "clear" and "unambiguous" is kind of a matter of opinion. (For example, I certainly wouldn't take "language other than English" to be "unambiguously out of scope" as currently defined in the content policy.) So I'd like the fences between "speedy delete", "needs a delreq to determine if it's in scope", and "clearly within scope" to be explicit. We mostly have "clearly within scope" nailed down in the content policy, we just need the border between the other two categories visited established. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 01:46, 28 November 2023 (EST)
Yes I'd add test pages, blatant hoaxes, and duplicate articles to that list too. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 11:36, 28 November 2023 (EST)

AARoads:Sources

I have redirected this to the relevant section of the content policy. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 00:09, 6 November 2023 (EST)

AARoads:User rights

I have redirected this to AARoads:User rights requests since there is a short summary of the various user rights available at the top of it. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 00:09, 6 November 2023 (EST)

Assessment scale

I started a mockup of an assessment scale over at User:Imzadi1979/Assessment. Thoughts? Imzadi 1979 → 23:23, 25 June 2023 (EDT)

I assume anything in Annex wouldn't be assessed? --Rs chen 7754 23:28, 25 June 2023 (EDT)

I like this assessment scale, it kind of goes with the assessment based on the completeness of the big three sections that we have used on Wikipedia for years along with having more formal processes similar to GAN/ACR/FAC, with the notable change of merging ACR and FAC. I think we can have an “Annex-class” for pages that are part of the annex that don’t need to follow the article assessment scale. Dough4872 23:32, 25 June 2023 (EDT)

I don't think there'd be much need for an "annex" class—that was necessary on enwp because we needed to tag pages relevant to our project and tell the template to ignore the assessment. Here, we can just leave the assessment template off (or feed it a generic "N/A" argument).

I do agree that annex pages shouldn't be assessed, however. In most cases they will not be articles we can judge by the same criteria (and some people who might be interested in using the annex wouldn't be interested in having their page assessed anyway). —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 02:26, 26 June 2023 (EDT)

I think of the Annex, under the current ideas of what it would be, as its own project. Putting that content into its own namespace implicitly assesses it, thus we don't need to assess it explicitly. Imzadi 1979 → 16:02, 27 June 2023 (EDT)

What about importance? Are we going to carry that over? Personally I've found it useless, to be honest. --Rs chen 7754 03:01, 29 June 2023 (EDT)

I think we can use the same importance scale that we use on Wikipedia. However, I can also see us not really needing an importance scale either. Dough4872 18:11, 29 June 2023 (EDT)

Agreed it would be useless; highways come pre-sorted by importance for your convenience. If we need something like the importance categories in the future we can just group by highway system. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 01:09, 1 July 2023 (EDT)

There are of course outliers. For example Clark County Route 215 is significantly more notable and important than the average county route, even Clark County route. But I don't see the need to create infrastructure just to tell people that, it's fairly self evident. It would be about like those classy Wikipedia templates "This section is empty" or "This lead may be too long".

I've taken some time to think about this and I don't think assessments are worth the effort anymore. On enwiki, we incentivized destubbing articles and that was great because it meant reducing the likelihood of the article being deleted. That's (very likely) not going to happen here, so the same kind of incentives won't work. Plus, it was easy to game the system if you had a buddy for mutual back scratching, which led to many Good Articles that frankly weren't very good. I'd be much happier with tags that we could place in a section that needs some work. Hell, we could even turn off their display for people who aren't logged in. I guess the incentive would be that it's our content on our website, so we want to make it good to increase readership. This all being said, I am not against a formal review for "featured content" for lack of a better term. I just don't think we need the bureaucracy of grading articles. –Fredddie ™ 00:49, 26 July 2023 (EDT)

You're correct that our incentives have changed a bit, and yes, assessment is a large amount of bureaucracy, especially if we're going to do a global reassessment rather than simply carry over the Wikipedia assessments. However, there's that old management axiom "If you can't measure it you can't improve it" (which is credited to so many people on the first page of Google results I'm just going to arbitrarily say Theodore Roosevelt came up with it). Assessments are subjective, but they are the only tool we have to see whether the project is moving forward or not. Frankly, without the assessments I become hilariously ineffective as an editor, because my entire editing workflow is structured around them; Oklahoma still has lots of articles with no history section or entirely unreferenced route descriptions, but without those being tagged "start" or whatever I'll spend more time finding them than if I can just go to the assessment list, sort worst to best, and grab what comes up. That, and I personally find it really hard to stay motivated without some sort of measurable progress I'm working toward. Without it, it just feels like I'm pouring time and energy to an endless task; at least if the number goes from 3.954 to 3.838 or whatever I have some proof to myself I did something. I suppose rather than using an assessment scale, we could just have a checklist of things that a featured article needs and then keep track of which articles have one check, which have two, etc... but that's just assessment with the serial number filed off.

Also, don't forget...because this isn't Wikipedia, if someone is engaging in bad faith conduct like falsifying assessments for useless wiki points...ban their ass. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 07:57, 27 July 2023 (EDT)

This reply is woefully late, but I get the same editing push by making sure "maintenance categories" are empty. The thought being is if there are no articles in the "Crappy history section" category, then I know everything is good. That's basically how I bided my time on enwiki. If we can tie the two together, you get your points and I get maintenance cats to empty, then everybody wins. –Fredddie ™ 15:49, 21 August 2023 (EDT)

I would disagree, while the statistics have been abused in the past, baby:bathwater. Also for the reasons Scott states. --Rs chen 7754 20:36, 21 August 2023 (EDT)

I like the proposed assessment scale, and support keeping assessment around in general. The benefits of having a metric to keep track of article quality outweigh the downsides of editors abusing the metrics. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 15:03, 19 September 2023 (EDT)

Implementation

I have implemented this as {{level of service}} (or {{LOS}} if you're in a hurry). It accepts class (for the class, A-E), region (state, province or country), and type (e.g. state highway, Interstate, turnpike, system, w/e). I've placed it on Kansas Turnpike, Michigan State Trunkline Highway System, and K-107 (Kansas highway) as a proof-of-concept. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 00:41, 22 September 2023 (EDT)

I like this a lot. Can you expand a little more on how we should use the "type" field? What does it currently accomplish and is there any standard way it's intended to be used? T C (Eli) 00:54, 22 September 2023 (EDT)

This is meant to be used to indicate the type of highway. So Interstate 80 would be something like {{LOS|class=C|region=United States|type=Interstate}}. Other options would be "U.S. route", "State highway", "System", "County road", or however you want to categorize it. The categories it files the article under are by region, type, or both. (So you would have, e.g. D-Class South Dakota articles, D-Class state highway articles, and D-Class South Dakota state highway articles.) —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 06:21, 22 September 2023 (EDT)

It sounds like we would need a list of acceptable options. I would prefer using abbreviations, but then we get into problems like whether WA is Washington or Western Australia. (Though Georgia could be a problem). I assume the state categories would also need to feed into the national categories. --Rs chen 7754 12:28, 22 September 2023 (EDT)

I feel like this should go onto the talk page. The load times of saving onto the main page are one reason. --Rs chen 7754 22:38, 24 October 2023 (EDT)

Agree, I think article assessments would better belong on the talk page. Dough4872 08:37, 10 November 2023 (EST)

Poll: Assessment

I think that we should get this initiative started soon, so here we go: --Rs chen 7754 21:11, 1 December 2023 (EST)

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The scale shall be adopted. T C (Eli) 05:15, 16 December 2023 (EST)

Should the overall scale at User:Imzadi1979/Assessment be adopted?

Yes. We can continue to refine it later, but this is a good starting point. --Rs chen 7754 21:13, 1 December 2023 (EST)
Yes - This is good to use given it is based off what was used on Wikipedia. Dough4872 21:52, 1 December 2023 (EST)
Yes, per above BMACS 1002 22:29, 1 December 2023 (EST)
Yes It's a familiar system and should work well, and we can always iron out kinks after our initial pass of assessments. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 00:40, 2 December 2023 (EST)
No, but only because I don't think assessments are the best ways to track progress. –Fredddie ™ 16:30, 2 December 2023 (EST)
Yes. I don't really think the previous system was broken, so no need to fix it. T C (Eli) 15:05, 5 December 2023 (EST)

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Article assessments shall be placed on the talk page. T C (Eli) 05:15, 16 December 2023 (EST)

Should article assessments go on the article itself or on the talk page?

Talk page, if only to deal with the page load times. --Rs chen 7754 21:13, 1 December 2023 (EST)
Talk page - This would help with page load times and mirror what was done on Wikipedia. Dough4872 21:52, 1 December 2023 (EST)
Talk page per above, though we should reconsider when improvements are made on the servers. BMACS 1002 22:29, 1 December 2023 (EST)
Talk page per above. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 00:40, 2 December 2023 (EST)
Neutral. I don't care where they go. –Fredddie ™ 16:30, 2 December 2023 (EST)
Neutral. I liked the mockup Scott provided a while ago of the emblem on the page itself and would like to see that become common practice. If that is not reasonable, so be it. T C (Eli) 15:05, 5 December 2023 (EST)

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Relevant articles that attained Featured Article status on the English Wikipedia shall be provisionally assessed as A-Class on the AARoads Wiki. T C (Eli) 05:15, 16 December 2023 (EST)

Until processes are developed for A-Class, should English Wikipedia featured articles be awarded A-Class on a provisional basis?

Yes. --Rs chen 7754 21:13, 1 December 2023 (EST)
Yes Dough4872 21:52, 1 December 2023 (EST)
Yes BMACS 1002 22:29, 1 December 2023 (EST)
Yes TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 00:40, 2 December 2023 (EST)
Yes. –Fredddie ™ 16:30, 2 December 2023 (EST)
Yes. T C (Eli) 15:05, 5 December 2023 (EST)

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Relevant articles that attained A-Class status on the English Wikipedia shall be provisionally assessed as A-Class on the AARoads Wiki. T C (Eli) 05:15, 16 December 2023 (EST)

Until processes are developed for A-Class, should English Wikipedia A-Class articles be awarded A-Class on a provisional basis?

Yes. --Rs chen 7754 21:13, 1 December 2023 (EST)
Yes Dough4872 21:52, 1 December 2023 (EST)
Yes BMACS 1002 22:29, 1 December 2023 (EST)
Yes TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 00:40, 2 December 2023 (EST)
Yes. –Fredddie ™ 16:30, 2 December 2023 (EST)
Yes. T C (Eli) 15:05, 5 December 2023 (EST)

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Relevant articles that attained Good Article status on the English Wikipedia shall be provisionally assessed as B-Class on the AARoads Wiki, though effort shall be taken to review these articles and reassess as necessary. T C (Eli) 05:15, 16 December 2023 (EST)

Until processes are developed for B-Class, should English Wikipedia good articles be awarded B-Class on a provisional basis?

Yes, though I suspect that some may be removed once the process is in place. --Rs chen 7754 21:13, 1 December 2023 (EST)
Yes Dough4872 21:52, 1 December 2023 (EST)
Yes BMACS 1002 22:29, 1 December 2023 (EST)
Yes, though we'll want to re-review these eventually. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 00:40, 2 December 2023 (EST)
No. I think a lot of the criticism USRD got with regards to good articles was justified. I'm not saying all of them are bad but a significant portion of them are. –Fredddie ™ 16:30, 2 December 2023 (EST)
Yes but only because I think there are more articles that are "legitimate" GAs than those that were promoted due to QPQ garbage. T C (Eli) 15:05, 5 December 2023 (EST)

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Relevant lists that attained Featured List status on the English Wikipedia shall be provisionally assessed as AL-Class on the AARoads Wiki, though some believe the distinction between AL-Class and A-Class is unnecessary. T C (Eli) 05:15, 16 December 2023 (EST)

Until processes are developed for A-Class, should English Wikipedia featured lists be awarded AL-Class on a provisional basis?

Yes. --Rs chen 7754 21:13, 1 December 2023 (EST)
Yes Dough4872 21:52, 1 December 2023 (EST)
Yes BMACS 1002 22:29, 1 December 2023 (EST)
Yes TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 00:40, 2 December 2023 (EST)
Yes, but I don't think there should necessarily be a distinction between A and AL. –Fredddie ™ 16:30, 2 December 2023 (EST)
Yes with the same caveat as Fredddie. T C (Eli) 15:05, 5 December 2023 (EST)

Specific assessment guidelines

We have multiple ideas for how to implement Imzadi's article grading/assessment scale above. I don't think we're ready for a formal poll just yet. However, please provide your comments on one or all of these ideas:

Essay - User:Rschen7754/How to write CA articles
Point scale - User:Fredddie/Rubric
Minimum requirement Checklist-User:Moabdave/articlegrading

Please give your thoughts to help prepare us for a formal vote. Dave (talk) 12:34, 3 December 2023 (EST)

General comments

Just as a note, my essay is solely intended to be that and is not meant to be a basis for assessment. It is also very CA-specific. --Rs chen 7754 16:20, 3 December 2023 (EST)

Essay comments

Point scale comments

My rationale for assigning points the way I did was to incentivize good writing in the RD and history sections over just having a sentence or two each in the RD and history and a fully fledged junction list and calling it a C-Class article. An article with a complete RD and history section would rank higher than the article with just having a sentence or two each in the RD and history and a fully fledged junction list. In terms of the old Wikiwork scale (remember it would only go up to 4.0 here), there is a big difference between a 2.000 C-Class article and a 2.999 C. To that end, I think the "GPA" should be advertised with the rating. " 3.219" –Fredddie ™ 12:51, 3 December 2023 (EST)

Ahh, now I get it. In that case the "optional" grading scale I initially proposed with my checklist draft wouldn't work for these aims, as the checklist still has all or nothing requirements. I'll take a second look. However, I suspect having a checklist isn't compatable with point scale and we'd have to have one or the other. However, I'm torn. I understand your logic that having a point scale could encourage article improvement even withing the same grade/rank. However, my mind is still wrapped around the idea of "minimum requirements".Dave (talk) 13:08, 3 December 2023 (EST)

I like it but would propose some changes. As the grading scale for Route description and History are substantially similar I'd make that generic and just have a grading scale for each prose section (i.e. level 2 heading with prose, not lists or tables). I say this as some highways legitimately have sections for pop culture (US 66 for example), incidents, controversy, etc. Making the prose grading scale per section would cover those. So I'd also have a criteria to grant points if a section beyond the "big two" is present and appropriate or deduct points for a section that is filler or a distraction. IMHO we need to encourage prose beyond the typical roadgeek details, but do it in a quality manner, not just dumping grounds for a list of Family guy episodes.

I'd also award points for any source that isn't an on-line map, to encourage more such sources. I have such changes made at the bottom of my linked checklist above.Dave (talk) 14:31, 3 December 2023 (EST)

I think a point scale might be a good idea to assign assessment as opposed to basing it on the presence or absence of the “big three” sections on Wikipedia. However, I am worried a lot of it could be subjective as editors may have different opinions on prose length, prose quality, etc. I think using a point scale or checklist based on the point scale might be better for assessing A or B class articles in formal review processes in which an editor or editors can determine whether or not an article should be promoted. However, I think C, D, and E class should be less formal and simply be based on presence or absence of the big three sections. Dough4872 16:47, 3 December 2023 (EST)

I have a similar concern. I initially tried a hybrid approach in my draft, part grading scale, part absolute minimum for that very reason. But my effort sucked, and the checklist alone wasn't bad, so that's what I went with. However, if you, or anybody else, has an idea for a hybrid scheme, I'd love to see the draft. Dave (talk) 00:42, 4 December 2023 (EST)

Checklist comments

Banner implementation

It seems that Imzadi's assessment scale is going to be implemented without much for editing, so I think now we should focus on a banner. I think we can work it into {{talk header}} rather than create a new template. Some questions I have:

What non-state/province task forces should we use?
Should there be some pseudo task forces for regions? (Upper Midwest US, Canadian Maritimes, etc.)
Should we tag non-article pages? (Categories, redirects, dab pages, etc.)
Article histories from enwiki? (FAC and ACR only)
What maintenance categories should we have? (needs-map, needs-jctint, etc.)
Is there anything we need to do to future proof? (Preview-class? similar idea to Travel Mapping preview status)

If you have any other suggestions, please add them. –Fredddie ™ 17:58, 18 December 2023 (EST)

I like the idea of working assessments into the talk header template, we don’t need project banners like on Wikipedia. I think we should stick with the same task forces that were used on Wikipedia, I don’t see any reason to have regional task forces as they will seem redundant to the state/provincial task forces. I’m okay with tagging non-articles but at the same time I don’t really think there is a need to tag them as they won’t be assessed as part of the letter assessment scale intended for articles. I don’t think we need Wikipedia article histories on here as this is a new and separate wiki and eventually we may wanna reassess articles that passed GAN/ACR/FAC on Wikipedia. I think the maintenance categories we used on Wikipedia are good to carry over onto here in order to point out articles that are missing features such as a map, junction list, mileposts, etc. Dough4872 18:15, 18 December 2023 (EST)

Whatever we do should be international friendly. Also, there are some articles that won't have a task force or country like the road terminology that should be accounted for. --Rs chen 7754 20:01, 18 December 2023 (EST)

List of Marine Fuel Tax highways in Arkansas

Is Marine Fuel Tax a proper noun? –Fredddie ™ 12:33, 6 March 2024 (EST)

The Arkansas Game and Fish Commission seems to think so. [14] Dave (talk) 19:00, 6 March 2024 (EST)

Missouri secondary state routes

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There is a rough 4-2 consensus for coverage in lists as appropriate. --Rs chen 7754 00:16, 13 March 2024 (EDT)

A list might be nice, or at the very most an RCS list. Almost all of them are too obscure for a full article, though. Scott5114 (talk) 00:09, 22 June 2023 (EDT)
The supplemental road system capstone article is sufficient. There are individual routes that could be notable, such as Route M in Jefferson County and Route D in St. Louis County. V C 21:23, 23 June 2023 (EDT)
I agree with VC. I think an RCS list is asking a lot. Like I mentioned in #Iowa spurs, after a while there's only so much you can say. –Fredddie ™ 22:50, 23 June 2023 (EDT)
It would be nice to have a table list, but I'm not sure about RCSes outside of the larger urban counties. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 00:42, 25 October 2023 (EDT)
Per TC31, however there are a few that are freeways that should remain separate articles. --Rs chen 7754 12:39, 25 November 2023 (EST)
I think tables by-county would be sufficient for these routes, with some routes getting individual articles. Dough4872 22:44, 6 March 2024 (EST)

List of highways numbered X

Example: w:List of highways numbered 1

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Clear consensus for adding these pages in some form, but see below. --Rs chen 7754 01:43, 10 November 2023 (EST)

No, just because they can be replaced by categories. --Rs chen 7754 01:37, 25 October 2023 (EDT)
Can they, though? What if routes are only covered as part of a listicle or in some similar fashion that crams multiple routes into a single page? T C (Eli) 01:45, 25 October 2023 (EDT)
Strong yes, because these are useful for AARF's "Lowest route number you haven't been on" game, and categories cannot contain redlinks. (Someone wanting to see where the closest 174 or whatever to them might be disappointed if we don't have an article on a particular 174, but the information they are looking for is whether 174 exists, not whether the article exists.) —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 01:43, 25 October 2023 (EDT)

Also, these originated as disambiguation pages. We will still need "Route 6" to redirect somewhere. And functionally, that dab page is going to look identical to a "List of highways numbered X" page. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 02:05, 25 October 2023 (EDT)

Yes. Even if it's just a routelist, this would be harmlessly fun at worst and actively useful at best. T C (Eli) 01:45, 25 October 2023 (EDT)
As a caveat to what Scott said, you can have a redirect in the category or you could just put a list in the wikitext portion of the page and then remove them when they turn blue. Consider me for having them and agnostic to where they should go. –Fredddie ™ 01:51, 25 October 2023 (EDT)
I think we should have these as disambiguation for routes with the same number. For example, someone searching for “Route 1” will be redirected to the page where they can see all highways numbered 1. Dough4872 07:41, 25 October 2023 (EDT)
I think this information should exist in some form. I have no opinion of that is best done via disambiguation pages or something like a category. Dave (talk) 12:16, 25 October 2023 (EDT)
Yes. They're useful for both disambiguation and various roadgeek purposes. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 12:22, 25 October 2023 (EDT)

Poll: import or start over

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After several months I count 3 votes for importing and 5 for starting over/using a bot to create the pages. So, this closes as using a bot to create the pages, provided someone can code the bot. --Rs chen 7754 19:40, 16 March 2024 (EDT)

Should these pages be imported from enwiki or should we start over? Concerns have been raised about missing routes. --Rs chen 7754 01:43, 10 November 2023 (EST)

I would think it would be easier to add missing routes as they are noted rather than start over. --Duke87 01:50, 10 November 2023 (EST)
Import. I think the enwiki articles are in good enough shape that it'll be less work to clean them up, fix missing routes, etc. than it will be to create 1000-odd lists from scratch. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 11:13, 10 November 2023 (EST)
Test a couple. I think we should at least try out what remaking a list would entail. If it's a pain in the ass, then we can import. –Fredddie ™ 16:39, 10 November 2023 (EST)
Starting over would probably be a lot less effort and more complete if a script were written to run through TravelMapping data and generate the lists that way. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 17:23, 10 November 2023 (EST)

I've done most of the work getting the info off TM manually - there needs to be more done (and include the frad/fram systems) to get it completely sorted (gleaning off text out of the number file, actually checking whether two different routes are part of the same route or duplicate numbers, etc) but then there's a (bot?) conversion of a system and route/banner/name combination into our naming conventions. I'm not sure it's easier! There's also the issue of TM criteria and scope being different to that here. Si404 (talk) 06:28, 17 January 2024 (EST)

Thank you so much for doing this. I've chosen the (auspicious) number 238 to do a comparison: [15]

ausvicc C238 238 - missing from enwiki
autl5 L238 Seekirchner Landesstraße 238 - missing from enwiki
autl6 L238 Kohldorferstraße 238 - missing from enwiki
autl7 L238 Niederthaier Straße 238 - missing from enwiki
beln N238 238 - missing from enwiki
canmbp MB238 238
cannl NL238 238
canpe PE238 238

Quebec Route 238 is missing from TM. (Update: I've been told this does not exist, however this is something that we would have to filter out)

crirs RS238 238
czeii II238 238 - missing from enwiki
deub B238 238 - missing from enwiki
deubbl L238 238 - missing from enwiki
deunwl L238 238 - missing from enwiki
deurpl L238 238 - missing from enwiki
deushl L238 238 - missing from enwiki
deusns S238 238 - missing from enwiki
espn N238 238 - missing from enwiki
gbna A238 238 - missing from enwiki
gbnb B238 238 - missing from enwiki
irlr R238 238 - missing from enwiki
islth TH238 238 - missing from enwiki
itass SS238 238 - missing from enwiki
jpnh N238 238
nldp N238 238 - missing from enwiki
poldw DW238 238 - missing from enwiki
roudj DJ238 238 - missing from enwiki
swel L238 238 - missing from enwiki
usaar AR238 238
usaaz AZ238 238
usaca CA238 Fremont 238
usafl FL238 238 - missing from enwiki

Georgia State Route 238 is missing, former

Indiana State Road 238 is missing, former

Iowa Highway 238 is missing, former

usai I-238 238
usaks KS238 238
usaky KY238 238 - missing from enwiki
usamd MD238 238
usame ME238 238
usamn MN238 238
usamts SR238 238
usanm NM238 238
usany NY238 238

Ohio State Route 238 is missing, former

usaor OR238 238
usapa PA238 238
usapr PR238 238
usari RI238 238

South Dakota Highway 238 is missing, former

usatn TN238 238
usatx TX238 238
usatxf FM238 238

Utah State Route 238 is missing, former

usava VA238 238
usawy WY238 238

It seems that neither source is 100% complete. --Rs chen 7754 14:44, 18 January 2024 (EST)

I ran a SPARQL query on Wikidata items with the road number property set to 238, and it's the least complete of the three by fair, but it also includes Japanese prefectural highways that aren't in either of the other two. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 22:56, 18 January 2024 (EST)

Import - We will save a lot of time by just importing the lists from Wikipedia and cleaning up as needed. Dough4872 17:58, 10 November 2023 (EST)
I will also note that as a point of order, [16] merged away a lot of the lists over 1000. For those it may be a lot harder to import and we may have less of a choice there. --Rs chen 7754 11:15, 11 November 2023 (EST)
Start over. I'm kinda over cleaning up enwiki stuff. It'd be nice to do it our way. T C (Eli) 15:01, 11 November 2023 (EST)
Bot Create, This seems like a case where a bot could auto-generate the pages. I think it's safe to say that any page with numerals in the title is a highway article, unless that numeral is a year. A bot could parse Special:allpages, strip out all pages with no numerals, then strip out the numerals that are likely years (for example any four digit numeral, check for the presence of infobox road in the article), then sort and dump. Could then even possibly pull the termini or decomissioned date from infobox road from the article being parsed if we wanted to list those. There would still be some cleanup work involved, however, it should be less work than either bluelinking enwiki imports or starting from scratch. If someone who actually codes bots thinks I've been smoking crack, my second choice is do a test run of say 5 articles that are imported, then bluelinked, verses 5 that are created from scratch, and go with the winner.Dave (talk) 01:02, 28 November 2023 (EST)
Bot(?) Create - We have a lot of lists already, eg those in Category:Lists of roads in the United States. They have Template: routelist row, which has a field 'route' containing the number. Grabbing all the ones with x and putting them on 'List of Routes numbered x' would make a good base. Then information from wikipedia, TravelMapping, wegenwiki, SABRE, etc can be used to supplement and enhance these. Si404 (talk) 06:28, 17 January 2024 (EST)
- Unfortunately I don't think every list was converted over to that template. Internationally there are very few that use it. --Rs chen 7754 00:06, 21 January 2024 (EST)
Bot create It appears to me that the most complete and easily parsed source is TM data, thus the bot should be run using that data and everything else should be used to fill in. The big question of course is, who will code the bot. --Rs chen 7754 00:06, 21 January 2024 (EST)

Mexico

Due to recent events on English Wikipedia (which won't be directly discussed here), I do think that our international articles are at risk. While we do have backups from 2023, it would be nicer to be able to disengage entirely without having to worry about what goes on there... while also trying to bring over as many editors as possible. We have not wanted to do a mass blind import, however, due to concerns that it would result in a large mess. I think that it would be easier to import slowly and be able to make fixes along the way, rather than having to do it in a hurry because GEOROAD fell suddenly.

Mexico seems the logical place to start. Unfortunately we don't have any active editors, however quite a few of us have been there. Some questions to think about:

Is now the time? I would have preferred that we get assessment done, but that is taking a while.
What are we considering notable? Federal and state highways? The ejes of Mexico City?
What about sources? I'm not 100% sure we have a comprehensive log at the federal level. What do we do about states where we can't find a route log?
Do we give each country its own resource page? Or upmerge somewhere?
What do we call the articles? At the federal level it is Mexican Federal Highway x, and we don't really use demonyms anywhere else.
Other things that need discussion? --Rs chen 7754 00:55, 22 January 2024 (EST)

I'd say now is as good as any time to start importing; the highways and ejes are the a good start for sure. I think the states we don't know a lot about we can use TM data to build state highway lists. I support creating "task force" pages for each country. When/if we start getting into the Caribbean, the territories can be a part of the European countries' task forces. As far as naming goes, I wonder how prevalent "Federal Highway x" is worldwide. We might be able to eschew disambiguators, otherwise, "Federal Highway x (Mexico)" suits me just fine. The state highways, I would put at "State Highway x (state)". I thought I remember talking about using disambiguators for everywhere but the US and Canada. –Fredddie ™ 18:06, 22 January 2024 (EST)

The problem is that TM only has data for Queretaro, Mexico State, and DF (ejes). There's 29 other states, though admittedly I haven't been that thorough in my searching. --Rs chen 7754 20:05, 22 January 2024 (EST)

I will add that I support creating task force pages on an as needed basis only. I don't want us to waste all our energy building up the projectspace and not the articlespace. –Fredddie ™ 19:22, 22 January 2024 (EST)

I'm not sure why we would disambiguate other countries in a different way than we do the United States (without a good reason specific to that country); that would seem like it would violate the principle of least astonishment without providing any benefit in exchange. We should keep things consistent. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 00:22, 23 January 2024 (EST)

I'm willing to revisit AA:NC, especially regarding the State Highway/Road/Route states. I thought the responses for keeping NCs the way they were at enwiki were based on tradition more than anything else. Whenever we get to Europe, I want to avoid naming conventions like "Belgium A1" or "Germany Bundesautobahn 8" simply because that's the least astonishing name. –Fredddie ™ 14:06, 23 January 2024 (EST)

I would imagine the alphanumerics would still use the parentheses form since that would be consistent with the K- and M- routes in the US. I don't think there's any need to disambiguate Bundesautobahn in particular unless there are other German-speaking countries that use that term (does Austria?), since in English the term autobahn is fairly closely linked to the German network. On the other hand, for other countries that give their highways a proper name to go with the number, I can't think of any reason having "Oklahoma State Highway 5" but "State Highway 5 (New Zealand)" would make any real sense. —Scott5114 ↗ [EXACT CHANGE ONLY] 00:50, 24 January 2024 (EST)

If the goal is to bring more editors here, the logical place is to start importing where we have people who have expressed interest, before that interest is lost, not add more work to the already active editors. Just my $.02, no doubt either way Mexico will be imported eventually.Dave (talk) 19:26, 22 January 2024 (EST)

I say we import the country and regional task forces from HWY on Wikipedia as a start and can create more specific country task forces at a later time when enough resources are found to warrant splitting off. For now our first focus should be importing articles, we can work on getting project space cleaned up later on. Regarding Mexico, importing numbered federal and state highways and the Mexico City ejes is a good idea and for now we can keep the naming conventions from Wikipedia. Dough4872 21:06, 22 January 2024 (EST)

I think we should start with importing what's on enwiki to give us a good base to start with; that's most of the federal highways and a handful of state highways, plus the ejes. I think it's also a good idea to look for route logs and keep track of what we find, since that gives us something to build route lists from. Once we have lists it'll hopefully be easier to write more articles.TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 21:35, 22 January 2024 (EST)

I created AARoads:Mexico and listed what I have for sources so far. I wasn't very thorough at the state level for looking at sources. --Rs chen 7754 21:07, 23 January 2024 (EST)

6 system/list articles were imported just now for Mexico. --Rs chen 7754 22:48, 29 January 2024 (EST)

Mexico has been imported. The naming convention question is still open. --Rs chen 7754 19:15, 3 February 2024 (EST)

I'm sure this is coming in the MURA, but do we want to introduce the 10 junction infobox limit to international? –Fredddie ™ 16:41, 12 February 2024 (EST)

See Mexican Federal Highway 15D –Fredddie ™ 16:42, 12 February 2024 (EST)

I would support, though my ultimate preference is to do away with the field entirely. --Rs chen 7754 20:00, 12 February 2024 (EST)

Renaming

This discussion has been closed and is preserved as an archive of the decision of the community. Please do not modify it!

After almost a month, pretty clear consensus to use Mexico Federal Highway x. --Rs chen 7754 19:34, 16 March 2024 (EDT)

I wanted to dig into this a little more. Currently, federal highways are named Mexican Federal Highway 1, but it's the only highway system where we've used the place's demonym in the title (this includes the before times on enwiki). Shouldn't it be Mexico Federal Highway 1 to be "least astonishing"? –Fredddie ™ 16:41, 20 February 2024 (EST)

I think this is a good idea to use the official place name rather than the demonyn in the article title, unless official sources use “Mexican” rather than “Mexico”. Dough4872 17:45, 20 February 2024 (EST)
Sounds good, but then I assume that we are going to use this across the site when there is a number with no letter? --Rs chen 7754 20:26, 20 February 2024 (EST)
Can you be more specific? –Fredddie ™ 21:19, 20 February 2024 (EST)
Chile Route 203, for example. --Rs chen 7754 21:20, 20 February 2024 (EST)
Oh yeah, that's consistent. –Fredddie ™ 21:26, 20 February 2024 (EST)

Saskatchewan Highway 16

There are some unnecessary quotations in this article that are on the verge of violating copyright. We don't have a copyright handling system, but if anyone had time to remove the unnecessary quotes and write (not closely paraphrase) in replacement text, it would be a great help. --Rs chen 7754 02:31, 23 February 2024 (EST)

International: next steps

Well, we imported Mexico and did a bit of cleanup. Thanks to all who participated.

What are our next steps?

Do we need more cleanup of the US/Canada/Mexico first?
Are we ready to take on another country, and if so, what?
- One possibility is continuing down with Belize and finishing up North America before going to the different continents. This would provide more continuity.
- Another possibility is fulfilling the remaining requests on AARoads:International, meaning we would continue with Costa Rica. Following that, we would prioritize countries that are in better shape on English Wikipedia. This would be better for editor recruitment if we could get a partnership with those editors to build up a base before going to countries with fewer/no editors. (I did come up with a list but don't want to post publicly).

One thing we don't want to do is blindly import countries with no cleanup, hence the caution. --Rs chen 7754 02:00, 18 March 2024 (EDT)

Looking at AARoads:International/Countries/North_America, Costa Rica is the only Central American country with any serious number of articles (340! Mexico only has just over 200). Belize is 4, Guatemala 0, El Salvador 2, Honduras 1, Nicaragua 1, Panama 1 and there's some articles on the 15 Central American Highways that don't seem to be listed in the Countries bit (presumably as it was forgotten). It's only about 30 stub/start level articles to import and cleanup to do 6 countries (the Caribbean is a similarly low number, to finish North America - especially if we ignore the French/Dutch/British islands until we do those countries). Is it worth keeping that separate from Costa Rica? Its definitely not worth keeping them separate from each other! Si404 (talk) 05:47, 18 March 2024 (EDT)

I myself prefer a geographic approach for sanity reasons, however there are concerns about focusing on countries that have mostly stubs when other countries with more developed content remain at some risk (yes, we have 2023 backups, but still). Then, one could say that stubs are more at risk than developed articles. *shrug* There would be some overhead for each country as we researched the system to make sure that what is being imported is legitimate.

Panama is not worth importing IMO, the 1 article is very strange and would probably be better off leaving on enwiki.

I am not aware of any Central American Highway (CA-) articles, but it is possible that they weren't tagged properly.

Another question that should be addressed is how to handle the dependencies - whether we handle those with the main country or do it separately. I would prefer to do it separately especially for the ones that span multiple continents, but then we didn't even do that with the US (PR/VI etc, maybe even AK/HI). --Rs chen 7754 14:10, 18 March 2024 (EDT)

Costa Rica is worthy of importing so we should do that. Why wait, especially when we have an editor basically waiting for us to import. I think we should also kick off the rest of Central America by creating lists. That's only six countries, so it's not a huge effort. Some digging will need to be done and our Spanish dictionaries dug out, but we can do it. –Fredddie ™ 15:01, 18 March 2024 (EDT)

Belize is a bit different from the others in that it speaks English, and that there is no number system, but a number of notable highways. The 4-5 main highways do have articles already [17]. Guatemala and Panama basically have nothing. The rest only have 1-2 stubs. --Rs chen 7754 20:20, 18 March 2024 (EDT)

Looks like there's only one CA- article, the CA-5 in Honduras (only road in that country with an en.wiki article). I'm not sure how much is salvageable, having looked at the articles, from the rest of Central America, but there's no reason why we can't bring in what's not totally strange from that handful of articles and bring those countries into scope so some stubs or an RCS list can be made for their roads. I'm easy either way with whether we bring in overseas bits now or with the country. With the US territories (and AK/HI), there's not really anything obviously in the way between those bits and the mainland, other than miles and miles of ocean. Si404 (talk) 15:44, 18 March 2024 (EDT)

I like the idea of importing countries in a geographical pattern but also do think we should give some priority to countries where there’s editors who want to be included. Maybe import countries where there are editors who want to be included and then import the rest based on geography. Dough4872 18:42, 18 March 2024 (EDT)

I think it makes sense to import Costa Rica next, and there's so little to clean up from the other six Central American countries that we might as well import those too. After that, it gets trickier. If we keep following a geographic pattern, we'll start running into countries that require major cleanup pretty soon, and if nobody's volunteering to help then we might be stuck with poorly imported articles for a while. It might make more sense to do requests first, though we only have two left after Costa Rica, and for Georgia the requester seems to want to wait until larger nearby countries are imported. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 23:51, 18 March 2024 (EDT)

Coming back to the dependencies question, I think the sticking point is if we don't wind up importing France for several months, we leave North America incomplete when Guadeloupe/Martinique etc don't get imported. --Rs chen 7754 00:50, 19 March 2024 (EDT)

So going through the comments above:

Belize: go ahead and import the 4-5 highways plus list
Guatemala: list only for now, nothing on enwiki
El Salvador, Nicaragua: 2 articles exist per country, but no list. Import? Or list only?
Honduras: import the existing RCS list. [18] Merge the 1 article in? [19] or keep separate?
Costa Rica: I did send Roqz an email, haven't heard anything back. Go ahead and import? One big question: are we considering all 3 levels (primary, secondary, tertiary) notable? Some of the tertiaries are 60+ miles long, might not be paved though. [20]
Panama: list only for now, the existing enwiki article is weird

Thoughts? --Rs chen 7754 21:31, 22 March 2024 (EDT)

I like the idea of importing Central America next as it provides geographical continuity with North America and also satisfies a request from an editor to import Costa Rica. I feel like we will need to have further discussion on what to import after Central America though. Dough4872 21:37, 22 March 2024 (EDT)

Also - one task force for all of Central America? --Rs chen 7754 14:33, 25 March 2024 (EDT)

Now AARoads:Central America. --Rs chen 7754 21:30, 25 March 2024 (EDT)

Rest of North America

We've now imported Central America. There has been talk about doing Europe, but I think we should finish out North America first. This is a breakdown of what is left, mostly in the Caribbean:

Articles to import: Trinidad and Tobago (15), Barbados (1), Caribbean Netherlands (1)*, Cuba (10), Dominican Republic (11), Jamaica (1), Martinique (1)*
Countries/territories with road systems: St. Pierre and Miquelon*, Aruba*, Cayman Islands*, Guadeloupe*, Haiti, Saint Barthelemy*, Saint Martin*
No known system: Anguilla*, Antigua and Barbuda, Bahamas, Bermuda*, British Virgin Islands*, Curacao*, Dominica, Grenada, Montserrat*, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Saint Lucia, Turks and Caicos Islands*

So the questions to consider:

Do we go ahead with importing the 38-40 Caribbean articles, and adjust the scope to be all North America? I suspect that we will postpone all the "no known system" countries until stuff turns up.
Do we hold off on importing dependencies until we do Europe? While Europe is most likely next, we don't know when France and the Netherlands will be done. --Rs chen 7754 22:11, 21 April 2024 (EDT)

I think we can go ahead and import articles from independent countries in the Caribbean as that will essentially complete North America. After that I think we should move on to Europe as there is good content and editor interest there. The dependencies in the Caribbean can be imported along with Europe as they probably don’t have much content and would logistically make more sense to be grouped with their main country (much like how Puerto Rico was included with the US at the launch and not held until the rest of the Caribbean was imported). Dough4872 22:33, 21 April 2024 (EDT)

I think we can go ahead and import the Caribbean articles too - there aren't that many of them, and it's a cohesive geographic area that builds on what we've already imported. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 23:59, 21 April 2024 (EDT)

The 38 articles from the independent Caribbean nations are the next logical step. The only problem I see is that the coverage seems very surface level - eg one article for Jamaica despite 3 or 4 motorways is rather thin on the ground - and unlikely to be improved on. Do we want threadbare coverage of certain juridisctions? But then Central America had the same, and there's certainly no chance they are going to get improved if the scope isn't expanded to include them! I agree with keeping the autres mer places with their metropolitan country (to use the French framing), but if the consensus is to include North American dependencies, then Greenland is missed off the above list.

PS - I'm not sure Europe should be a priority as there's comprehensive fan sites covering much of it. Oceania is much more dependant on the other place as a repository of roads knowledge, is predominantly Anglo-phonic, and thus is subject to the same forces that led to the creation of this place. Si404 (talk) 07:07, 22 April 2024 (EDT)

I've considered Greenland to be part of Europe (at least politically), but there is no known road system (and very few roads) so it wouldn't make much of a difference.

There has been an influx of users to the Discord from Europe and some interest expressed there, which is why Europe is of interest. The problem with Oceania (really just Australia, with some NZ) is that while there are active editors there, it seems the prevailing opinion there is to keep going at enwiki until the sky starts to fall. We have tried to reach out to those editors but gotten limited feedback; there are a few who seem to want to go ahead with the new enwiki agenda at the expense of content (much like the UK went a while back). --Rs chen 7754 10:56, 22 April 2024 (EDT)

Obviously the Caribbean articles should be next. It's wild to have continental North America but not any of the Caribbean. I think if we get the framework in place (categories, templates, E-roads, etc.), we could quickly hit the ground running with Europe shortly after getting the Caribbean in place. If we do it right, France and the Netherlands would be first and then their dependencies would be handled. The British dependencies are so sparse that we could just create lists now as there's nothing to import. –Fredddie ™ 10:49, 23 April 2024 (EDT)

Will also note Haiti has a list at [21]. --Rs chen 7754 13:34, 27 April 2024 (EDT)

Since it looks like we will be moving forward in some form I've created AARoads:Caribbean. --Rs chen 7754 14:06, 24 April 2024 (EDT)

All articles of independent countries have been imported. --Rs chen 7754 23:04, 28 April 2024 (EDT)

Alberta secondary (500+)

This discussion has been closed and is preserved as an archive of the decision of the community. Please do not modify it!

The default for these articles will be RCS, however existing articles will not be merged away, and neither will routes that are more notable. The PAR/UARs will remain as a table. --Rs chen 7754 17:51, 30 March 2024 (EDT)

Note that 900s are future realignments of primary routes

900+ should remain separate. Undecided on the rest. --Rs chen 7754 01:53, 20 June 2023 (EDT)
- Leave as standalone for now. Most of the routes are currently handled by table in List of Alberta provincial highways, but they are dozens of miles long. I am uncomfortable with any mass merging action at present. It is possible some could be downgraded to RCS but I'd leave that to a future time. I don't want to start another discussion, but the park access/urban access roads can be left as a table. --Rs chen 7754 13:50, 2 December 2023 (EST)
Tables or RCS for the 500–800 series. Mention the 900s in the article of the related primary route. V C 19:25, 21 June 2023 (EDT)
If there's already an article, status quo. If not, RCS, with no prejudice against standalone articles for anything more significant. Leave PAR/UARs as a table. TheCatalyst31 ^{Reaction•Creation} 00:51, 13 March 2024 (EDT)

[1] Named highways are at <name of road> Highway.

[2] American Samoa uses four-digit numbers, padding them with the necessary zeros.

[3] Replace <division> with County, District, Municipal, or Regional as required.

[a]

[b]

[c]